Padre Pio

So know they say that he had a source of some acid, plausibly to fake the stigmata. Does anyone know anything more about this? Didn’t various doctors check him out? Acid burns seems like a standard thing to check.
Are there more canonized saints with… discouraging circumstances?

Says wikipedia:

"His stigmata, regarded by some as evidence of holiness, was studied by physicians whose independence from the Church is not known.[20][21] The observations were reportedly unexplainable and the wounds never became infected.[20][21][38] His wounds healed once, but reappeared.[39] The wounds were examined by Luigi Romanelli, chief physician of the City Hospital of Barletta, for about one year. Dr. Giorgio Festa, a private practitioner also examined them in 1920 and 1925. Professor Giuseppe Bastianelli, physician to Pope Benedict XV agreed that the wounds existed but made no other comment. Pathologist Dr. Amico Bignami of the University of Rome also observed the wounds, but could make no diagnosis.[40] Both Bignami and Dr. Giuseppe Sala commented on the unusually smooth edges of the wounds and lack of edema. Dr. Alberto Caserta took X-rays of the hands in 1954 and found no abnormality in the bone structure.[41]

It was reputed, however, that his condition caused him great embarrassment, and most photographs show him with red mittens or black coverings on his hands and feet where the bleedings occurred.[21] At Padre Pio’s death in 1968, his body appeared unwounded, with no sign of scarring. Allegedly there was report that doctors who examined his body found it empty of all blood.[42]

Historian Sergio Luzzatto and others, both religious and non-religious, have accused Padre Pio of faking his stigmata. Luzzatto’s theory, namely that Padre Pio used carbolic acid to self-inflict the wounds, is based on a document found in the Vatican’s archive — the testimony of a pharmacist at the San Giovanni Rotondo, Maria De Vito, from whom he ordered 4 grams of the acid. According to De Vito, Padre Pio asked her to keep the order secret, saying it was to sterilise needles. The document was examined but dismissed by the Catholic Church during Padre Pio’s beatification process.[43]

One commentator expressed the belief that the Church likely dismissed the claims based on witnesses that stated the acid was in fact used for sterilization: "The boys had needed injections to fight the Spanish Flu which was raging at that time. Due to a shortage of doctors, Padres Paolino and Pio administered the shots, using carbolic acid as a sterilizing agent.”

Some modern research has indicated stigmata are of hysterical origin,[20] or linked to dissociative identity disorders,[21] especially the link between dietary constriction by self-starvation, dissociative mental states and self-mutilation, in the context of a religious belief.[22] Anorexia nervosa cases often display self-mutilation similar to stigmata as part of a ritualistic, obsessive compulsive disorder. A relationship between starvation and self-mutilation has been reported amongst prisoners of war and during famines.[23][24][25] A psychoanalytic study of stigmatic Therese Neumann has suggested that her stigmata resulted from post-traumatic stress symptoms expressed in unconscious self-mutilation through abnormal autosuggestibility.[26]

In his Stigmata: A Medieval Phenomenon in a Modern Age, Edward Harrison suggests that there is no single mechanism whereby the marks of stigmata were produced. Harrison found no evidence from a study of contemporary cases that the marks were supernatural in origin. He concluded, however, that marks of natural origin need not be hoaxes. Some stigmatics marked themselves in attempt to suffer with Christ as a form of piety. Others marked themselves accidentally and their marks were noted as stigmata by witnesses. Often marks of human origin produced profound and genuine religious responses. Harrison also noted that the male-to-female ratio of stigmatics, which for many centuries had been of the order of 7 to 1, had changed over the last 100 years to a ratio of 5:4. Appearance of stigmata frequently coincided with times when issue of authority loomed large in the Church. What was significant about stigmatics was not that they were predominantly men, but that they were non-ordained. Having stigmata gave them direct access to the body of Christ without requiring the permission of the Church through the Eucharist. Only in the last century have priests been stigmatized.[27]

From the records of St. Francis’ physical ailments and symptoms, Dr. Edward Hartung concluded in 1935 that he knew what health problems plagued the holy man. Hartung believed that he had an eye ailment known as trachoma, but also had quartan malaria. Quartan malaria infects the liver, spleen, and stomach, causing the victim intense pain. One complication of quartan malaria occasionally seen around Francis’s time is known as purpura, a purple hemorrhage of blood into the skin. Purpuras usually occur symmetrically, so each hand and foot would have been affected equally. If this were the case of St. Francis, he would have been afflicted by ecchymoses, an exceedingly large purpura. The purple spots of blood may have been punctured while in the wilderness and therefore appear as an open wound like that of Christ.[28]

[quote="ferreus, post:1, topic:263145"]
So know they say that he had a source of some acid, plausibly to fake the stigmata. Does anyone know anything more about this? Didn't various doctors check him out? Acid burns seems like a standard thing to check.
Are there more canonized saints with.. discouraging circumstances?

[/quote]

Don't be discouraged. When someone attacks a Saint, they are simply doing the Liar's work. Padre Pio's wounds were medically inexplicable. But he was attacked all his life here, and after he passed, and sometimes by authorities in his own Church. Most Saints have been, as far as I know. The Internet is rife with these people.

Saint Pio's wounds were inexplicable because they had clean edges, no signs of inflammation of surrounding tissue, they never healed or showed signs of healing, they bled continuously with no clotting, and they healed completely with no scarring just before his death. Self-inflicted wounds, acid burns, anything like that would show completely different circumstances and absolutely leave scars.

I think we should ignore claims that hold he was faking them. That man was a Saint, and he had other gifts other than his stigmata signs such as:

1- Prophecy (the ability to announce future events, he for instance predicted Paul VI and John Paul I were going to be popes before the even were).
2- Extraordinary Discernment (ability to read consciences, he frequently used this gift for the ministry of the sacrament of confession).
3- Healing: miraculous cures through the power of prayer.
4- Bilocation: being in two places at once.
5- Perfume: in his presence one could perceive a fragrance of flowers (the "odor of sanctity").
6- Incorruptibility: After death, bodies that reportedly undergo little or no decomposition, or delayed decomposition, are sometimes referred to as incorrupt or incorruptible. This is the case of Saint Padre Pio.

If he had these and many other gifts confirmed by many people (even John Paul II), I don't think we should doubt about his stigmata sufferings. Plus the Church has already canonized him (and is infallible when doing so).

Get the book, "Padre Pio Under Investigation: The Secret Vatican Files"

It will answer all the questions of your mind and heart.

The tiny amount of carbolic acid known to have been ordered could not have accounted for any type of bleeding wound for even a few weeks, much less so many years.

And carbolic acid in any amount could not have caused the type of bleeding wound described by the doctors and investigators sent to document the wounds and symptoms.

This book contains a translation of the notes and correspondence by the Bishop Inquisitor Raffaelo Rossi who was sent to investigate Padre Pio. It is not always an easy read, but it is an eraser of doubts.

Many saints endured terribly discouraging and apparently defeating circumstances. Martyr saints gave their lives. All of them endured difficulties of one kind or another.

[quote="ferreus, post:1, topic:263145"]
So know they say that he had a source of some acid, plausibly to fake the stigmata. Does anyone know anything more about this? Didn't various doctors check him out? Acid burns seems like a standard thing to check.
Are there more canonized saints with.. discouraging circumstances?

[/quote]

Read the book "Padre Pio under investigation.". Various doctors (some atheists) investigated him and some created fanciful stories with no possibility of it being true, but most were left dumbfounded. So many people converted to Catholicism by meeting Pio of Pietrelcina. They were a genuine miracle.

Btw your couldn’t get the beautiful aroma that came from his wounds (many witnesses confirm his wounds radiated a beautiful smell) if he was using acid on his wounds. They would have smelt of horrible odor.

[quote="ferreus, post:1, topic:263145"]
So know they say that he had a source of some acid, plausibly to fake the stigmata. Does anyone know anything more about this? Didn't various doctors check him out? ?

[/quote]

yes for decades those inside the Church including his religious superiors were suspicious of him and had him repeatedly, exhaustively subject to medical, psychatric and other investigations. He is not a saint because he had the stigmata he became a saint the way every other saint does, heroic virtue. btw the canonization process went back and looked at every aspect of his life, including not only his own writings, but all those examinations, objections, punishments, suspicions, and the results of those tests and procedures.

"they say" is not a reliable source for anything, so if you want to make an allegation, please provide a reliable source.

[quote="ferreus, post:1, topic:263145"]
So know they say that he had a source of some acid, plausibly to fake the stigmata. Does anyone know anything more about this? Didn't various doctors check him out? Acid burns seems like a standard thing to check.
Are there more canonized saints with.. discouraging circumstances?

[/quote]

You seem to be under the mistaken belief that his stigmata had something to do with his canonisation. Whether a person has a stigmata or not is not taken into account when considering a case for canonisation.

In the case of Padre Pio his stigmata was real and he had plenty of medical checks on the wounds. Why do you let Catholic haters sow doubts in your mind??

[quote="ChrisRedfield47, post:4, topic:263145"]
I think we should ignore claims that hold he was faking them. That man was a Saint, and he had other gifts other than his stigmata signs such as:

1- Prophecy (the ability to announce future events, he for instance predicted Paul VI and John Paul I were going to be popes before the even were).
2- Extraordinary Discernment (ability to read consciences, he frequently used this gift for the ministry of the sacrament of confession).
3- Healing: miraculous cures through the power of prayer.
4- Bilocation: being in two places at once.
5- Perfume: in his presence one could perceive a fragrance of flowers (the "odor of sanctity").
6- Incorruptibility: After death, bodies that reportedly undergo little or no decomposition, or delayed decomposition, are sometimes referred to as incorrupt or incorruptible. This is the case of Saint Padre Pio.

If he had these and many other gifts confirmed by many people (even John Paul II), I don't think we should doubt about his stigmata sufferings. Plus the Church has already canonized him (and is infallible when doing so).

[/quote]

Padre Pio isn't an incorruptible but I don't blame you, this is a common mistake held among several incorruptible adherents.

"Padre Pio’s body was embalmed and was buried under a three tons slab which took a crane for it to be sealed. When his body was exhumed in 2008, Vatican officials found that the back part of his head was already in skeletal form and the face is fairly decomposing except for the body and the limbs. In order that the face would be presentable and recognizable, a silicone mask was applied in the face."

bluepanjeet.net/2010/08/10/6834/correcting-incorruptibles-list-saints-mistaken-incorrupt/

[quote="Poof, post:10, topic:263145"]
Padre Pio isn't an incorruptible but I don't blame you, this is a common mistake held among several incorruptible adherents.

"Padre Pio’s body was embalmed and was buried under a three tons slab which took a crane for it to be sealed. When his body was exhumed in 2008, Vatican officials found that the back part of his head was already in skeletal form and the face is fairly decomposing except for the body and the limbs. In order that the face would be presentable and recognizable, a silicone mask was applied in the face."

bluepanjeet.net/2010/08/10/6834/correcting-incorruptibles-list-saints-mistaken-incorrupt/

[/quote]

Ok, if so, the Saint had other gifts one cannot ignore when investigating his life.

[quote="Poof, post:10, topic:263145"]
Padre Pio isn't an incorruptible but I don't blame you, this is a common mistake held among several incorruptible adherents.

"Padre Pio’s body was embalmed and was buried under a three tons slab which took a crane for it to be sealed. When his body was exhumed in 2008, Vatican officials found that the back part of his head was already in skeletal form and the face is fairly decomposing except for the body and the limbs. In order that the face would be presentable and recognizable, a silicone mask was applied in the face."

bluepanjeet.net/2010/08/10/6834/correcting-incorruptibles-list-saints-mistaken-incorrupt/

[/quote]

While I do not find the issue of incorruptibility of the body very important, I also would like to point out that there is no reference for his assertion. IOW, at this point he is just a guy on a blog who said something. As I have no information, I am not saying he is wrong, I'm simply saying we have no reason to believe him.

When the Vatican investigates these causes of Saints, do they make the investigation public? Is there anything of an official nature to find?

LOL. Thanks a lot. I really need to learn to calm down..

My personal opinion is that most of the saints had “discouraging circustances”; some to the point of martyrdom.

Although I believe that he had the stigmata, I revere St. Pio for how the he lived. This made him a saint in my eyes. As far as being incorrupt or not, that means nothing to me as far as judging him. He was a living saint before he passed, IMO. :slight_smile:

Pax†

I agree.

Both the stigmata during life and incorruptibility after death have nothing to do with a person being canonised.

I saw on Yahoo today a link about this story to the Puffington Post (Huffington Post). I figured if it came from them it had to be false. They were advancing the notion that St. Pio’s stigmata was a result of carbonic acid. I immediately thought of his telling the then Bishop Wojtyla that he would lead the church and other things.

Still I am relieved to hear some debunking of this attack against St. Pio. The church’s process to declare that a person has become a Saint is very thorough. There are many enemies of the faith out there

God Bless

Dear God, You generously Blessed You Servant,
St. Pio of Pietrelcina with the Gifts of the Spirit.
You marked his body with the five Wounds
of Christ Crucified, as a powerful witness
to the Saving Passion and Death of Your Son.
Endowed with the Gift of Discernment,
St. Pio labored endlessly in the Confessional
for the Salvation of Souls.
With reverence and intense devotion
in the celebration of Mass
He invited countless men and women
to a greater union with Jesus Christ
in the Sacrament of Holy Eucharist.

Through the intercession of Saint Pio of Pietrelcina,
I confidently beseech You to grant me (petitiion here). Amen

Glory Be To The Father…(3 repetitions)

from:
padrepiodevotions.org/pioprayers.asp

A smooth grey rock would offer better, more unbiased information regarding any Catholic topic than Wiki.

At least the rock wasn’t made by teenage kids who copy paste from the first blog they find that agrees with them on Google.

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