[FONT=“Comic Sans MS”]I am in correspondence with a friend using the Bible only to share each other’s faith. I’m R.C., she is Evangelical. John 19:30 states, “It is finished” She states, “Jesus died and paid the price for all who believe in Him. When we ‘add’ somthing to it we are saying what He did on the cross was not good enough” Her claim is that Catholics complicate faith by adding all these rules. Any suggestions?
Then the requirement to believe in Jesus is also adding something. The requirement that one have faith is adding something. The requirement to repent is adding something. The requirement to confess Jesus is adding something.
Her position can only logically end in universalism or Calvinism. Either everybody is saved no matter what, or some are saved and some are damned no matter what.
Jesus said, “If you love me, follow my commandments”.
Scripture is replete with similar admonishments.
Scott Hahn, in Understanding the Scriptures, talks about “it is finished” as being a reference to the mystical Passover, incomplete since the night before, when Jesus and the Apostles went out to Gethsemane after singing a hymn (and before consummating the Passover meal with the fourth and final cup of wine). Jesus says “it is finished” after drinking a small bit of wine.
Or, if that’s too much for you (or your friend), ask her about Col 1:24. Anyway, “It is finished” could simply be referring to his earthly (pre-glorified) ministry.
Ask your “Bible Christian” friend if she believes that Jesus’ work was fully accomplished on the cross.
She will say, “Yes.”
Then quote the following: "He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification. (Romans 4:25)
Ask her if her justification was complete before Jesus was raised to life.
She will have to think about that, but the scripture is clear. Jesus’ salvific work was NOT finished upon the cross but at the empty tomb.
While she is still struggling with that, ask her what “It is finished.” means in light of this.
Point out that Jesus says, “It is finished” right after drinking wine - the wine of the fourth cup of the passover meal which began in the upper room.
You can walk her through the fact that Jesus said he would not drink again of the fruit of the vine until the kingdom of God came, that he turned down the offer of wine mixed with myrrh before the crucifixion and that ONLY after everything was accomplished on the cross did he fulfill scripture by saying, “I thirst.” At that point, He DID drink some wine - the fourth cup - and said, “It is finished.” You see, on the Cross, Jesus did enter his glory - the Kingdom of God.
It was the passover supper - NOT His saving work - that was finished.
Then you can point out how in Exodus, the instructions were to put blood on the doorposts AND to EAT the Lamb.
Jesus is our lamb…we have to EAT his body just as the Jews had to eat the flesh of the passover lamb in the OT. It’s all about the Eucharist.
It’s all here: catholic.com/thisrock/1991/9109fea1.asp
Hope this helps. :tiphat:
Indeed. The resurrection hadn’t happened yet, so his work wasn’t ‘finished’.
A good rebuttal would be,“If it was finished, then how come He still had to be resurrected from the dead?”
Just because Jesus’ task is finished, that doesn’t mean ours is.
If somebody bought you a ticket for a concert and left it at the box office, would that mean you could just walk on in?
Or would you have to stop at the box office and pick up the ticket?
Would it be unfair if the theater insisted that you use the designated doors, instead of sneaking in through the employee ones? Would it be adding a useless requirement if they told you not to push and shove everybody else, and not to cut in line?
Is it too much to expect – that you do your tiny, tiny part to cooperate with the One who built the theater, and conform to the will of the One who left you the ticket?
Jesus will do a lot with the tiniest cooperation and consent on our part. But we have to make that tiny bit of effort. He won’t force us against our will; Our Savior is no stalker.
Here’s a great link for proving the Catholic church through scripture: scripturecatholic.com/index.html.
When I was a Baptist considering Catholicism, there was a verse that struck me between the eyes, like I hadn’t read it before. I wish I could remember the book/chapter/verse, but it was Paul saying that he was “working out his salvation with fear and trembling.”
Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling,
So much for sola fide. :dancing:
Hope this helps. :tiphat:
That’s a good point. If there’s really nothing more to be done, then we should be in heaven now, or at least saved from the moment of conception.
Scott Hahn: The fourth cup
Ask you friend to explain this:
24 Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I complete what is lacking in Christ’s afflictions for the sake of his body, that is, the church"
Is Paul saying the sacrifice of Jesus was not sufficient?
What is Paul saying I have never been able to understand this passage and I have never heard the catholic understanding of it.
Here’s what the Haydock Commentary says. “Ver. 24. And fill up those things…in my flesh for his body, which is the church. Nothing was wanting in the sufferings or merits of Christ, for a sufficient and superabundant redemption of mankind, and therefore he adds, for his body, which is the church, that his sufferings were wanting, and are to be endured by the example of Christ by the faithful, who are members of a crucified head. See St. Chrysostom and St. Augustine. (Witham) — Wanting. There is no want in the sufferings of Christ himself as head; but many sufferings are still wanting, or are still to come in his body, the Church, and his members, the faithful. (Challoner) — St. Chrysostom here observes that Jesus Christ loves us so much, that he is not content merely to suffer in his own person, but he wishes also to suffer in his members; and thus we fill up what is wanting of the sufferings of Christ. (St. Chrysostom) — The wisdom, the will, the justice of Jesus Christ, requireth and ordaineth that his body and members should be companions of his sufferings, as they expect to be companions of his glory; that so suffering with him, and after his example, they may apply to their own wants and to the necessities of others the merits and satisfaction of Jesus Christ, which application is what is wanting, and what we are permitted to supply by the sacraments and sacrifice of the new law.”
Jesus has made us heirs, and he has promised that we will share in His divine mission to reconcile the world to Himself. This involves participation in his sufferings as well. It does not mean that His sacrifice on the cross was in any way insufficient. It means that when we add our sufferings to His, we become partakers of his grace. This is the whole foundation for the Catholic saying “offer it up”.
2 Cor 11:22-31
23 Are they servants of Christ? I am a better one - I am talking like a madman - with far greater labors, far more imprisonments, with countless beatings, and often near death. 24 Five times I have received at the hands of the Jews the forty lashes less one. 25 Three times I have been beaten with rods; once I was stoned. Three times I have been shipwrecked; a night and a day I have been adrift at sea; 26 on frequent journeys, in danger from rivers, danger from robbers, danger from my own people, danger from Gentiles, danger in the city, danger in the wilderness, danger at sea, danger from false brethren; 27 in toil and hardship, through many a sleepless night, in hunger and thirst, often without food, in cold and exposure. 28 And, apart from other things, there is the daily pressure upon me of my anxiety for all the churches. 29 Who is weak, and I am not weak? Who is made to fall, and I am not indignant? 30 If I must boast, I will boast of the things that show my weakness. "
Paul had some things happen to him that Jesus never did. Does that make Jesus suffering insufficient? By no means. But Jesus has allowed Paul, as He has allowed all of us, to partake of His suffering on behalf of the church, and on behalf of the world.
10 that I may know him and the power of his resurrection, and may share his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, 11 that if possible I may attain the resurrection from the dead."
When we pray that we may know him, we become united with him in the power of HIs resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings.
I recommend the thread on “WORKS SALVATION” for a good explanation on the finished work of Christ on the cross.