Pakistani bishop warns of prospect of dhimmitude [CWN]

Bishop Joseph Coutts of Faisalabad, Pakistan's third largest city, told Aid to the Church in Need that the nation's Christians are facing the prospect of dhimmitude. Citing the laws ...

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In country after country, Islam is not modernizing to accommodate the tolerance and equal rights that globalism requires. It is medievalizing back to its seventh century values.

[quote="Darryl1958, post:2, topic:202111"]
In country after country, Islam is not modernizing to accommodate the tolerance and equal rights that globalism requires. It is medievalizing back to its seventh century values.

[/quote]

Even moderate Muslims I've spoken with don't see a problem with making non-Muslims pay a "jizya", since they don't pay alms, as Muslims must.

How would they react if the US or England proposed a "non-Christian tax"?

[quote="scipio337, post:3, topic:202111"]
Even moderate Muslims I've spoken with don't see a problem with making non-Muslims pay a "jizya", since they don't pay alms, as Muslims must.

How would they react if the US or England proposed a "non-Christian tax"?

[/quote]

With Jihad.

[quote="Darryl1958, post:2, topic:202111"]
In country after country, **Islam is not modernizing to accommodate the tolerance and equal rights that globalism requires. **It is medievalizing back to its seventh century values.

[/quote]

I'm not sure sure this is per sae a bad thing.

Neither is the Catholic church.

Critics of the catholic church would say, and do say, (Ive been told this to my face when Ive had discussions about catholicism with non catholics) that the CC is living in the dark ages and needs to ''modernize to accommodate the tolerance and equal rights that globalism requires''.

They then go on to cite the Catholic chuchs stance on contraception, abortion, sex before marriage, gay sex, women priests, and on and on.

That the Catholic Church will not ever sell it's core principles to be seen as accommodating or modernising, and has consistently fought against such things, is to it's unending credit.

Don't expect Islam to sell out on it's core anytime soon either.

[quote="Guyonthestreet, post:5, topic:202111"]
I'm not sure sure this is per sae a bad thing.

Neither is the Catholic church.

Critics of the catholic church would say, and do say, (Ive been told this to my face when Ive had discussions about catholicism with non catholics) that the CC is living in the dark ages and needs to ''modernize to accommodate the tolerance and equal rights that globalism requires''.

They then go on to cite the Catholic Churchs stance on contraception, abortion, sex before marriage, gay sex, women priests, and on and on.

That the Catholic Church will not ever sell it's core principles to be seen as accommodating or modernising, and has consistently fought against such things, is to it's unending credit.

Don't expect Islam to sell out on it's core anytime soon either.

[/quote]

It is quite illiberal actually to think that enforcing second class status on people on account of their religion is not per se a bad thing. It is perhaps a sign of civilizational exhaustion that the left and so much of the West even has sold out even on core liberal values that have been the basis of our advanced civilization from at least the time of the French and American revolutions.

There is that central question on Islam as to whether or not dhimmitude and the enforced submission of non-Muslims to Muslims is a core Islamic value or not, whether Islam is capable of being a full partner in a fully pluralistic world. Very likely to those who are pushing for sharia do indeed see this as a core value. Very likely many, many Muslims share this core value with the the militant Islamists. It is not a question of core values differing, but a difference on method of how best to achieve this core value.

It is curious that a non-Muslim would see being subjected to the humiliation of dhimmitude as a good thing for themselves, or at least not a bad thing per se.
Sweet dreams are made of these..../I] sort of sentiment, perhaps?

[quote="Guyonthestreet, post:5, topic:202111"]
I'm not sure sure this is per sae a bad thing.

Neither is the Catholic church.

Critics of the catholic church would say, and do say, (Ive been told this to my face when Ive had discussions about catholicism with non catholics) that the CC is living in the dark ages and needs to ''modernize to accommodate the tolerance and equal rights that globalism requires''.

They then go on to cite the Catholic chuchs stance on contraception, abortion, sex before marriage, gay sex, women priests, and on and on.

That the Catholic Church will not ever sell it's core principles to be seen as accommodating or modernising, and has consistently fought against such things, is to it's unending credit.

Don't expect Islam to sell out on it's core anytime soon either.

[/quote]

Catholics would like for everyone to support their stances on life. However, they won't force it on anyone with something like Sharia.

It is odd that people that have problems with the Catholic stance on many social issues do not have a problem with dhimmitude—even seem to welcome it

In terms of politics, there is really only one issue that the Catholic church is insistent one and that is abortion. That is due to the fact that another life is at stake. A second large issue is gay marriage.
Either way, the Catholic Church has been a faithful partner to the democratic process every step of the way and is willing to persuade rather than force the population to go where it does not choose to go.

Inequality defines sharia dhimmitude, and what we would normally call human rights is not part of a sharia law that would amputates limbs, beheads infidels, stones rape victims, marry pre-pubescent girls, and crucify dead bodies for whatever reason. I am baffled how the same people who are openly critical of Catholic social justice and life issues are so quick to praise sharia as being not a bad thing per se.

This is the main reason that I tend to use the term 'left' in my political critiques rather than 'liberal'. There is very little that is liberal about the left any more.

[quote="iamrefreshed, post:7, topic:202111"]
Catholics would like for everyone to support their stances on life. However, they won't force it on anyone with something like Sharia.

[/quote]

True.

But if catholics had their way in a pluralistic society, there would be no abortion clinics for example.

Women would not be able to freely chose to have an abortion in that society without having to go elsewhere.

(And before you start, Im vehemently prolife, anti abortion, and financially support Life here in the UK lifecharity.org.uk/support).

In Ireland in the 70's bands of women like Mary mcCaferty (sp?) drew attention to the fact they had to go abroad to buy condoms. Nowhere in Ireland, not even pharmacies, could you buy a condom. And you risked arrest and confiscation for bringing them into the country.

Im pretty sure many non catholics living in Ireland at the time felt they were getting the rough end of a very rough stick.

[quote="Darryl1958, post:6, topic:202111"]
It is curious that a non-Muslim would see being subjected to the humiliation of dhimmitude as a good thing for themselves, or at least not a bad thing per se.
Sweet dreams are made of these..../I] sort of sentiment, perhaps?

No idea what the sweet dreams reference is about.

I never said I thought it was a good thing.

I also never said it was not per sae a bad thing.

I said, I'm not sure it's a bad thing, per sae, refering to principles.

There's a whole world of difference right there.

[/quote]

[quote="Guyonthestreet, post:10, topic:202111"]
No idea what the sweet dreams reference is about.

I never said I thought it was a good thing.

I also never said it was not per sae a bad thing.

I said, I'm not sure it's a bad thing, per sae, referring to principles.

There's a whole world of difference right there.

[/quote]

That's right. You never said it was a 'good thing', just not 'per se, a bad thing'. No need to repeat. Note how in the second half of quoted sentence I too allowed for that important qualification.

My only comments were how apathetically illiberal is the idea that dhimmitude is 'not per se, a bad thing'.
That is what the OP is about after all, right? Dhimmitude for Christians in Pakistan....

And I do agree as well, that there most assuredly is a world of difference between life in the midst of the cultural apathy of a nihilistic, civilizationally exhausted Western left, and the frenetic, often violent fanaticism of a world dominated by a political Islamist movement. That is the world that is rising in the East, in which dhimmitude is purported not to just 'not per se, a bad thing', but a very,very good thing indeed.

'Sweet Dreams' refers to a song by the Eurythmics in the 1980's in which people actually get off with being abused, humiliated and dominanted. Such is the life of the infidel under Muslim principles of dhimmitude.

[quote="Darryl1958, post:11, topic:202111"]
'Sweet Dreams' refers to a song by the Eurythmics in the 1980's in which people actually get off with being abused, humiliated and dominanted. Such is the life of the infidel under Muslim principles of dhimmitude.

[/quote]

I seriously doubt those living there are ''getting off'' on being subjugated!!

Could the same then be said of Ireland in the 70's - a very catholic state, where abprtion was illegal, condoms were illegal, where you had to go abroad to buy them, and risked being fined and imprisoned if caught bringing them into the country.

Admittedly that's all changed now, but only after major upheaval and the action of numerous womens interests groups.

But if the catholic church and catholic politicians had had their way, it would still be illegal to buy or import condoms there.

And there wouldnt be one single catholic person here in uproar that such policies are grotesquely unfair on those living in Ireland that are not catholic.

So, is it only ok to subject the rest of the population to a religious ideal, if that ideal is Catholic?

[quote="Guyonthestreet, post:12, topic:202111"]
I seriously doubt those living there are ''getting off'' on being subjugated!!

Could the same then be said of Ireland in the 70's - a very catholic state, where abprtion was illegal, condoms were illegal, where you had to go abroad to buy them, and risked being fined and imprisoned if caught bringing them into the country.

Admittedly that's all changed now, but only after major upheaval and the action of numerous womens interests groups.

But if the catholic church and catholic politicians had had their way, it would still be illegal to buy or import condoms there.

And there wouldnt be one single catholic person here in uproar that such policies are grotesquely unfair on those living in Ireland that are not catholic.

So, is it only ok to subject the rest of the population to a religious ideal, if that ideal is Catholic?

[/quote]

Was there a special tax for non-Catholics? Death penalty for "apostacy" from Catholicism? Death penalty for "insulting" the Pope?

Apples and rutabaga comparison.

You're damn straight, dhimmitude is, "per sae a bad thing".

As an enlightened secular humanist, you would be one of the first ones stoned to death, all while repeating "I for one welcome our Muslim overlords".

[quote="scipio337, post:13, topic:202111"]
Was there a special tax for non-Catholics? Death penalty for "apostacy" from Catholicism? Death penalty for "insulting" the Pope?

[/quote]

Not now.

But any reading of any decent history of early catholic europe paints an alarming picture of what a catholic world really looked like, meant and felt for the average citizen.

That's Sharia law.

You're not going to change it.

Anymore than a non catholic will ever get the catholic church to agree to women priests, contraception, abortion, gay marriage etc.

[quote="scipio337, post:13, topic:202111"]
As an enlightened secular humanist, you would be one of the first ones stoned to death, all while repeating "I for one welcome our Muslim overlords".

[/quote]

I don't welcome muslim overlords.

I dont welcome muslim terrorists.

I've risked my life fighting them.

[quote="Guyonthestreet, post:12, topic:202111"]

I seriously doubt those living there are ''getting off'' on being subjugated!!

I wouldn't think so. It was more directed at you while you were musing whether or not this might not per se be a bad thing. I was wondering if you kind of got a thrill at the idea of being treated like that?

Who am I to disagree?

Could the same then be said of Ireland in the 70's - a very catholic state, where abprtion was illegal, condoms were illegal, where you had to go abroad to buy them, and risked being fined and imprisoned if caught bringing them into the country.

Ireland is a pretty ugly place to live then?

Admittedly that's all changed now, but only after major upheaval and the action of numerous womens interests groups.

It is a better place to live now that you can have abortions and buy condoms?
Yippee!!

But if the catholic church and catholic politicians had had their way, it would still be illegal to buy or import condoms there.

The Catholic Church turned Ireland into a living hellhole, did they? Is that what you are saying? Dhimmitude in the umma is a veritable paradise by comparison, perhaps not a bad thing, per sae?

And there wouldnt be one single catholic person here in uproar that such policies are grotesquely unfair on those living in Ireland that are not catholic.

Catholics are very bad people then? Ever single one of us here? Is that your witness?

So, is it only ok to subject the rest of the population to a religious ideal, if that ideal is Catholic?

But dhimmitude is perhaps not a bad thing per se, right?
Is that still your position on the subject at hand?

[/quote]

[quote="scipio337, post:13, topic:202111"]
......

*You're damn straight, dhimmitude is, "per sae a bad thing". *

As an enlightened secular humanist, you would be one of the first ones stoned to death, all while repeating "I for one welcome our Muslim overlords".

[/quote]

Anyone who would disagree that dhimmitude is absolutely a bad thing per sae would either be a Muslim or a masochist.

[quote="Darryl1958, post:15, topic:202111"]

Ireland is a pretty ugly place to live then?

It is a better place to live now that you can have abortions and buy condoms?
Yippee!!

The Catholic Church turned Ireland into a living hellhole, did they? Is that what you are saying? Dhimmitude in the umma is a veritable paradise by comparison, perhaps not a bad thing, per sae?

Catholics are very bad people then? Ever single one of us here? Is that your witness?

But dhimmitude is perhaps not a bad thing per se, right?
Is that still your position on the subject at hand?
[/quote]

[quote="Darryl1958, post:16, topic:202111"]
Anyone who would disagree that dhimmitude is absolutely a bad thing per sae would either be a Muslim or a masochist.

[/quote]

Actually scrub my last post. I'm reporting these two posts for personal slander, disgusting insinuations, and offensive and derogatory personal remarks.

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