Papacy: Why did the disciples dispute greatness? (Lk 22:25)


#1

In Saint Luke's Gospel 22:24ff. we read:

And there was rivalry between them over the question, which of them was to be accounted the greatest. 25 But he told them, The kings of the Gentiles lord it over them, and those who bear rule over them win the name of benefactors. 26 With you it is not to be so; no difference is to be made, among you, between the greatest and the youngest of all, between him who commands and him who serves. 27 Tell me, which is greater, the man who sits at table, or the man who serves him? Surely the man who sits at table; yet I am here among you as your servant. You are the men who have kept to my side in my hours of trial: 29 and, as my Father has allotted a kingdom to me, so I allot to you 30 a place to eat and drink at my table in my kingdom; you shall sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. 31 And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan has claimed power over you all, so that he can sift you like wheat: 32 but I have prayed for thee, that thy faith may not fail; when, after a while, thou hast come back to me, it is for thee to be the support of thy brethren.

I've seen this part used to challenge the Papacy. The question I ask is: Why did the disciples dispute who was the greatest, if Peter had been made Christ's Vicar?

That's the general question. However, second one exists too.

Considering verses 29-32, where Jesus seems to be pointing out that Peter is indeed special, the question might be framed differently: About what kind of greatness are the disciples disputing, before Our Lord tells Peter what his job is?


#2

The matter was humility, not which was the greatest. Compare with the parable we heard last week at mass:

Luke 14:7-11
Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition (DRA)
7 And he spoke a parable also to them that were invited, marking how they chose the first seats at the table, saying to them:
8 When thou art invited to a wedding, sit not down in the first place, lest perhaps one more honourable than thou be invited by him:
9 And he that invited thee and him, come and say to thee, Give this man place: and then thou begin with shame to take the lowest place.
10 But when thou art invited, go, sit down in the lowest place; that when he who invited thee, cometh, he may say to thee: Friend, go up higher. Then shalt thou have glory before them that sit at table with thee.
11 Because every one that exalteth himself, shall be humbled; and he that humbleth himself, shall be exalted.

Thus, He told them:

Mark 10:42-45
Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition (DRA)
42 But Jesus calling them, saith to them: You know that they who seem to rule over the Gentiles, lord it over them: and their princes have power over them.
43 But it is not so among you: but whosoever will be greater, shall be your minister.
44 And whosoever will be first among you, shall be the servant of all.
45 For the Son of man also is not come to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a redemption for many.


#3

the lesson to learn is about humility and that is fine, but the question is why where they arguing in the first place. and that has not been answered.


#4

[quote="jediknight, post:3, topic:338532"]
the lesson to learn is about humility and that is fine, but the question is why where they arguing in the first place. and that has not been answered.

[/quote]

Pride!


#5

The desire for a special place to be admired.


#6

[quote="jediknight, post:3, topic:338532"]
the lesson to learn is about humility and that is fine, but the question is why where they arguing in the first place. and that has not been answered.

[/quote]

During his earthly ministry, Jesus Christ seems to have singled out Peter, James and John for special attention among the twelve apostles, such as when he was transfigured (Luke 8:51) and when he raised Jairus' daughter from the dead. (Luke 9:28)


#7

John 13:7 NIV draws a good parallel.

7 Jesus replied, “You do not realize now what I am doing, but later you will understand.”


#8

Jesus was telling his disciples that one of them was going to betray him..maybe they argued over who would be the greatest out of a sense of indignation that each of them felt that individually they would never betray Jesus so it must be one of the other disciples..so naturally each one would feel they were the greater by assuming it would be one of the others..( hope that make sense?)..anyhow..Jesus made it clear who was to lead them when he told Peter that he Peter..would have to strengthen his brothers :)


#9

Yes, plain and simple pride, I always cringe when I read this passage and Mark 10:35-37.


#10

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