Papal Infallibility


#1

If the Pope is infallible, What is the purpose of an Ecumenical Council?,


#2

The Pope is only infallible in certain circumstances when he chooses to invoke his charism of infallibility. Infallibility does not mean that he just gets teachings out of nowhere from the Holy Spirit or something. The councils think and pray to come to better understandings. Only once an idea has been developed can it be infallibly defined.


#3

[quote=Lazerlike42]The Pope is only infallible in certain circumstances when he chooses to invoke his charism of infallibility. Infallibility does not mean that he just gets teachings out of nowhere from the Holy Spirit or something. The councils think and pray to come to better understandings. Only once an idea has been developed can it be infallibly defined.
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I understand that aspect of papal infalliblity. For example, (Karl Keating gave this argument in Catholicism and Fundamentalism), If someone is infallible in math and given 100 math problems, How many math problems does that person have to answer to be infallible? The answer would be 0. But since most of the decrees made by ecumenical councils relate to faith and morals, and if the pope is infallible on faith and morals, why have a council?


#4

[quote=Hegesippus]I understand that aspect of papal infalliblity. For example, (Karl Keating gave this argument in Catholicism and Fundamentalism), If someone is infallible in math and given 100 math problems, How many math problems does that person have to answer to be infallible? The answer would be 0. But since most of the decrees made by ecumenical councils relate to faith and morals, and if the pope is infallible on faith and morals, why have a council?
[/quote]

To give the Pope things to make infallible statements about.


#5

[quote=Lazerlike42]To give the Pope things to make infallible statements about.
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Were the dogmas of the Immaculate conception and the Assumption of the Blessed Mother pronounced at a Council?


#6

Another point, the early ecumenical councils were not attended by the pope but, rather representatives of him.


#7

[quote=Hegesippus]Were the dogmas of the Immaculate conception and the Assumption of the Blessed Mother pronounced at a Council?
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I dont believe so. To begin with, infallible statements are on things that are a part of the Church’s Tradition. They are not new things.

Councils come together because of a number of reasons. One is that these things that are a part of the Tradition are discussed and thought about and prayed about and they are developed (not changed) at the councils. These ideas are sometimes defined infallibly.

However, another reason councils come together is simply to catch up with the times. That doesn’t mean to change the Church teachings based on culture. It does however mean to reevaluate Church practices and customs based on the changing culture. The councils address issues such as this (things like what language to have Mass in or whether to require abstinence on Fridays or whatnot) as well, not just imfallible statements.


#8

Infallibility guarantees that the pope will not error in his teaching, but it does not guarantee that he will know what teaching to make. An ecumenical council serves to come up determine teachings. It is up to the Pope to determine whether or not they are valid.


#9

But the Pope isn’t the only one who can speak infallibly. The Magisterium also has the power to “bind and loose”.

Notworthy


#10

[quote=NotWorthy]But the Pope isn’t the only one who can speak infallibly. The Magisterium also has the power to “bind and loose”.

Notworthy
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Just in case anybody doesn’t know, the Magesterium would for all intents and purposes be the council, because it is all of the Bishops teaching in union.


#11

[quote=Lazerlike42]Just in case anybody doesn’t know, the Magesterium would for all intents and purposes be the council, because it is all of the Bishops teaching in union.
[/quote]

Forgot “With the Pope”.

The Pope can speak Ex-Cathedra - Infallible even with 100 percent of all the Bishops dissagreeing with him.

Ken


#12

Here are a couple of articles which might help you.

newadvent.org/cathen/07790a.htm
newadvent.org/cathen/04423f.htm


#13

[quote=kleary]Forgot “With the Pope”.

The Pope can speak Ex-Cathedra - Infallible even with 100 percent of all the Bishops dissagreeing with him.

Ken
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Are you sure about that? If the Pope and the Magisterium taught contrary teachings, and they are both infallible, wouldn’t that cause a tear a hole in the universe?:slight_smile:

Notworthy


#14

[quote=Lazerlike42]Just in case anybody doesn’t know, the Magesterium would for all intents and purposes be the council, because it is all of the Bishops teaching in union./QUOT

I might be mistaken, but i thought the magisterium was the bishops teaching in union with the pope.
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#15

[quote=Hegesippus]If the Pope is infallible, What is the purpose of an Ecumenical Council?,
[/quote]

Ecumenical coucils have a number of purposes, among them to confront heresies, make determinations concerning various practices (or disciplines), and advise the pope on various matters.

The pope, throughout history, has been the final arbiter of matters within the Church, but it was not until recent history that papal infallibility was defined. Accepted in practice before, but not defined.

If you want more information concerning why there are ecumenical councils, you might want to look at the document of Vatican 2 which is concerned about the collegiality of the bishops with the pope. that may she light on how the Church looks at the issue of infallibility.

There are three areas of infallibility: the pope in making an infallible pronouncement (it has happened twice, with the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception and the Assumption of Mary); an ecumenical council making an infallible statement (generally with the pope present, but if not, then ratified by the pope at a later date, as occured in history), and the authentic teaching of the Church through the Magisterium - the teaching of the bishops in union with the Church and the pope, as shown by the issue, for example, of the moral issue of the grave sinfulness of taking an innocent life intentionally; an issue never formally defined by the Church either by a pope or an ecumenical council, but held by the Church since its inception.


#16

[quote=NotWorthy]Are you sure about that? If the Pope and the Magisterium taught contrary teachings, and they are both infallible, wouldn’t that cause a tear a hole in the universe?:slight_smile:

Notworthy
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Yes, this is correct. The pope can speak infallibly and it is still infallible if everyone on the planet agrees with him. The rest of the Magisterium can only be infallible when they are teaching in union with the pope. No pope, no infalliblity. Ecumenical councils on infallible on when the pope ratifies the council. The articles I posted give the organs of infallability.


#17

[quote=NotWorthy]Are you sure about that? If the Pope and the Magisterium taught contrary teachings, and they are both infallible, wouldn’t that cause a tear a hole in the universe?:slight_smile:

Notworthy
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Remember - the Pope is a bishop :slight_smile:


#18

[quote=bear06]Yes, this is correct. The pope can speak infallibly and it is still infallible if everyone on the planet agrees with him. The rest of the Magisterium can only be infallible when they are teaching in union with the pope. No pope, no infalliblity. Ecumenical councils on infallible on when the pope ratifies the council. The articles I posted give the organs of infallability.
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Argh! Meant disagrees. To late to edit!


#19

…and likewise the Pope can essentially “throw out” what a Council declares. This has happened in history, as well. Therefore, we add the statement “in union with the Pope” in applying infallibility to a declaration from a Council.

(Consider that an instant patch in the hole in the universe!)


#20

[quote=msproule]…and likewise the Pope can essentially “throw out” what a Council declares. This has happened in history, as well.

(Consider that an instant patch in the hole in the universe!)
[/quote]

Whewwww!!!

Notworthy


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