Pater Noster-Holding Hands

Can any give me any information on the history of holding hands during the Our Father, and its state of legitimacy in the Mass?

See:

forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=21936&highlight=holding+hands

forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=19417&highlight=holding+hands

forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=9950&highlight=holding+hands

forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=6641&highlight=holding+hands

forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=92772&highlight=holding+hands

forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=91348&highlight=holding+hands

forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=85865&highlight=holding+hands

I believe that at all Alcoholics Anonymous meetings they hold hands while saying the Pater Noster at the end. With all respect to this king of self-help organizations, that is its provenance when considering the appropriateness in liturgical usage.

one of my friends used to say that holding hands during grace was a way to keep the Catholics in the group from making the sign of the cross…:whacky:

At my parish, before we recite the Our Father, the little children are called to the front and form a circle, and hold hands with the alterservice, the priest and deacon, while those in the pews also stand and hold hands. We say the Our Father and raise our hands and close our eyes for “For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever and ever.”

I don’t see why one would object to this.

[quote=havemercy]At my parish, before we recite the Our Father, the little children are called to the front and form a circle, and hold hands with the alterservice, the priest and deacon, while those in the pews also stand and hold hands. We say the Our Father and raise our hands and close our eyes for “For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever and ever.”

I don’t see why one would object to this.
[/quote]

I really hope you are being sarcastic, if not please read the links provided by the moderator earlier in the thread. Both calling people forward to the altar and the holding of hands are not permitted by the Church. Both of which are a Protestant invention illicitly added to the Mass.

[quote=Marauder]I really hope you are being sarcastic, if not please read the links provided by the moderator earlier in the thread. Both calling people forward to the altar and the holding of hands are not permitted by the Church. Both of which are a Protestant invention illicitly added to the Mass.
[/quote]

another in the LONG list of examples that show a “More of Me, and less of Him” attitude in the liturgy.

shame on the people for remaining uneducated in the Mass… and shame on the clergy for much the same reason.

[quote=Marauder]I really hope you are being sarcastic, if not please read the links provided by the moderator earlier in the thread. Both calling people forward to the altar and the holding of hands are not permitted by the Church. Both of which are a Protestant invention illicitly added to the Mass.
[/quote]

No, I’m really not. My parish is quite lively. I’m glad to attend such a church (then again I’m eighteen, a Catholic revert, and I just love people). I’ve read the hyperlinks above us and I don’t understand why people are making such a big deal about holding hands. I mean, we are brothers and sisters in Christ.

During peace, my priest walks along all the isles, shaking the hands of many. Is this also intrusive? What about there being no organ? Is it intrusive if there are modernish songs played at all during mass? How about while leaving mass, we sing happy birthday to someone in the parish?

My parish is in communion with Rome, and from the past conversations with my priest he seems like he knows what he’s doing. Afterall, we are all under Vatican II, and such a council has allowed liberties to be taken with the liturgy, though certainly any liberties that are taken must respect the foundational tenents of liturgical worship.

My parish is devoutly Catholic, and there are many prayerful and somber faces during mass. I don’t think our parishoners would let something like this get out of hand (no pun intended).

Let me know your thoughts, and if there is some official document of the church with regards to the litergy and liturgical offenses, link me to it please!
lovetony

edit:
PS. Maybe if you all came on over to my church, you’d see how friggin awesome it is. You can take a look at my church’s website @ goodshepherdbrossard.ca

I do believe that my Uncle’s parish does some of this. At least they invite all the children to the front, and they (whoever is doing the mass - one of the conventual franciscans) speaks to them…But alas its been a while since I’ve been to Toronto. My uncle’s parish is located @ st-bonaventure.ca

The Mass is a universal experience that is supposed to be the same no matter where you go within the Church (baring difference due to different Rites and languages)

No priest is supposed to be taking liberties with the Mass.

The liturgy is supposed to conform to standards as set in the GIRM (General Instructions for the Roman Missal) and other documents that come out of Rome. One of the biggest documents that address litergical abuse is Redemptionis Sacrametum. Which can be found here:
usccb.org/liturgy/documents/instructioneng.shtml

The GIRM can be found here:
usccb.org/liturgy/current/revmissalisromanien.shtml

Some of the things you mention are not mentioned in those documents per say but come out of letters to the Vatican asking for permission or whether certain things are permitted.

Hand holding itself isn’t a bad thing (as you see in the one that asks if it is alright for a married couple to hold hands throughout the Mass), but requesting everyone to hold handd during the Our Father is
a) adding words to the Mass that don’t exist
b) changing the liturgical flow of the Mass

What is the purpose of exchanging the “Kiss” of peace after the Our Father, after you have just done a more intimate display of affection by holding their hands. Also the Vatican has stated that the practice of holding hands during the Our Father is to be reputiated.

Some of the things you mention are allowed, there is no requirement for an organ at a Mass. Different songs are allowed as long as they are approved by the appropriate authorities. I personally don’t think Happy Birthday is appropriate during Mass and I doubt it is on the approved song list from your local Bishops conference.

None of this is doubting the spirituality or how devout your congregation is. But a well meaning but misguided liturgy committee or pastor or whoever instituted these practices are adding illicit practices to your Mass.

There is a reason why the Catholic church is a universal church to add things to the Mass without proper permission is placing your own self above the Church.

Marauder has already provided some explanations and links, so I will not repeat them. Last time I checked, the Canadian Bishops’ website offers less freedom to view documents when compared to the USCCB. However, take a look at the USCCB site as most of the relevant topics are going to be similar or the same for both countries.

Your summary of Vatican II is a common one, but nonetheless inaccurate. It did not (intentionally) open the doors to liturgical experimentation. As I understand it, this was an unintended consequence. Unfortunately, it is truly difficult to put the contents of a spilled container back into the container. A careful reading of the documents will show where innovation and experimentation have gone terribly awry.

Do you know, in which document, statement or letter…with a quote about the Vatican saying that holding hands during Our Father is to be reputiated?

I don’t hold hands during the Our Father, I just come up from kneeling in a prayer position with hands folded and eyes closed…works everytime (knock on wood)…lol…:whistle:

We have “greeting our neighbor and introducing ourselves by name” right after the entrance, then holding the hands during the Our Father, and then the Sign of Peace…sheesh…I love the Kiss of Peace, that is what I took my screenname from…but I really don’t think the other is necessary, and don’t understand why so many people, feel they have to be in phyiscal contact with someone…so many times during the Mass to build community.

Peace be with you…Pam

[quote=PassthePeace1]Do you know, in which document, statement or letter…with a quote about the Vatican saying that holding hands during Our Father is to be reputiated?

[/quote]

Source is Notitiae 11 (1975) 226. Notitiae is the journal of the Congregation in which its official interpretations of the rubrics are published.]

[quote=“Notitiae 11 (1975) 226.”]QUERY: In some places there is a current practice whereby those taking part in the Mass replace the giving of the sign of peace at the deacon’s invitation by holding hands during the singing of the Lord’s Prayer. Is this acceptable?
REPLY: The prolonged holding of hands is of itself a sign of communion rather than of peace. Further, it is a liturgical gesture introduced spontaneously but on personal initiative; it is not in the rubrics. Nor is there any clear explanation of why the sign of peace at the invitation: “Let us offer each other the sign of peace” should be supplanted in order to bring a different gesture with less meaning into another part of the Mass: the sign of peace is filled with meaning, graciousness, and Christian inspiration. Any substitution for it must be repudiated: Notitiae 11 (1975) 226.
[/quote]

Commentary on the above and it’s relationship to the Lord’s Prayer can be found on EWTN’s site here:
ewtn.com/expert/answers/holding_hands_at_mass.htm

We had a snow day today, and I was watching some local access on the telly (you know, local programmes). I realised during the course of it that we really need to change parishes.

I saw a Protestant service, but you could not tell it from Mass at our parish excepting that the “worship leader” was not in a chasuble, but doctoral robes. He had a fake stole on (as most Protestants do…thus it annoys me when our priests wear the stole above the chasuble). Also, the “Lord’s Supper” was invalid, obviously.

Beyond this, however, I was apalled at how indistinguishable it was from Mass. I am a Catholic, not a Protestant! If I wanted to be a heretic, I would go to a heretic church, but I want to be Catholic, and so I want to go to a Catholic church and feel Catholic!

Protestant heresy is beginning to infiltrate. If we do not act now our beloved Holy Roman Church will be lost for ever to those whom the Devil has mislead!

:frowning:

[quote=msproule] Last time I checked, the Canadian Bishops’ website offers less freedom to view documents when compared to the USCCB. However, take a look at the USCCB site as most of the relevant topics are going to be similar or the same for both countries.
[/quote]

Just to clarify that both the GIRM and RS are Vatican documents so they apply to every country. The only part that doesn’t apply would be the appendix to the GIRM that lists adaptations to the GIRM that have been specifically approved by the US conference of Catholic Bishops and approved by the Vatican for use in the US. Canada would probably have it’s own appendix to the GIRM. All other parts of the GIRM and RS would apply to all Catholics in the Latin Rite.

[quote=Marauder]Just to clarify that both the GIRM and RS are Vatican documents so they apply to every country.
[/quote]

I have found that many (but not all) of our Canadian and overseas friends are less familiar of these documents because they are not as easy to obtain through their Bishops Conferences. For whatever reason, the U.S. seems to allow quicker and more widespread access.

Thanks for making this point, though! :cool:

[quote=Marauder]Source is Notitiae 11 (1975) 226. Notitiae is the journal of the Congregation in which its official interpretations of the rubrics are published.]

[/quote]

Just to be clear, this Noticiae does not repudiate holding hands. It only repudiates holding hands as a substitute for the Sign of Peace, which is the answer to the question posed.

[quote=Noticiae]…the sign of peace is filled with meaning, graciousness, and Christian inspiration. Any substitution for it must be repudiated…
[/quote]

[quote=ncjohn]Just to be clear, this Noticiae does not repudiate holding hands. It only repudiates holding hands as a substitute for the Sign of Peace, which is the answer to the question posed.
[/quote]

If you read the link that I also provided you would see the explanation how that Noticiia DOES apply to the Our Father and the prolonged holding of hands ANYWHERE during the Mass.

People in the US, Canada, and similar countries treat the GIRM, RS, and the Rubrics as an all emcompassing list of rules and if the rule doesn’t explicitly say you can or can’t do something then you are allowed to do whatever you want. That is NOT the case, the exact opposite is true. The way the rubrics are intended is that you follow what is written in them and do not add anything or take anything out without express permission. In the event there is a question about whether something is allowed or not, it is supposed to be taken up with the local Bishop. Individual priests are not supposed to be adding or deleting things without permission of the local Bishop and/or the Vatican.

[quote=Marauder]I really hope you are being sarcastic, if not please read the links provided by the moderator earlier in the thread. Both calling people forward to the altar and the holding of hands are not permitted by the Church. Both of which are a Protestant invention illicitly added to the Mass.
[/quote]

Both are illicit and neither should be done. They are a bad idea. It is, however, an urban myth and gross misinformation that they are Protestant inventions. Neither was a practice in the Reformation era and most non-Charismatic protestants do not practice them today either. You may see some Charismatic Episcopalians doing it, but that’s it. It’s not a feature in the Anglican tradition prior to the Charismatic Renewal (which I believe poses particular problems of its own), nor is a feature of the Lutheran tradition, nor the Calvinist, nor the Anabaptist tradition (almost all Protestant traditions stem from these branches). If Catholics don’t like it when Protestants come to us and try to tell us what our Church teaches and what we believe, then we should extend to them the same courtesy. Hardly any of the abuses foisted on the Mass today have their roots in Protestantism. This is a polemic batted around by radical traditionalists and people hear it and it gets further passed around, but it has no roots in fact or history.

[quote=Servus Pio XII]We had a snow day today, and I was watching some local access on the telly (you know, local programmes). I realised during the course of it that we really need to change parishes.

I saw a Protestant service, but you could not tell it from Mass at our parish excepting that the “worship leader” was not in a chasuble, but doctoral robes. He had a fake stole on (as most Protestants do…thus it annoys me when our priests wear the stole above the chasuble). Also, the “Lord’s Supper” was invalid, obviously.

Beyond this, however, I was apalled at how indistinguishable it was from Mass. I am a Catholic, not a Protestant! If I wanted to be a heretic, I would go to a heretic church, but I want to be Catholic, and so I want to go to a Catholic church and feel Catholic!

Protestant heresy is beginning to infiltrate. If we do not act now our beloved Holy Roman Church will be lost for ever to those whom the Devil has mislead!

:frowning:
[/quote]

Just go assist at Mass at an SSPX chapel and then contrast it to your parish. Believe me, back before Vatican II every Mass was like the SSPX.

[quote=JKirkLVNV]Both are illicit and neither should be done. They are a bad idea. It is, however, an urban myth and gross misinformation that they are Protestant inventions. Neither was a practice in the Reformation era and most non-Charismatic protestants do not practice them today either.
[/quote]

Saying something is a Protesting invention doesn’t necessarily mean that a particular Protestant denomination came up with the practice. I saw people at the local United Methodist church holding hands during the Our Father, long before anyone even thought about doing it in a Catholic church. Just because something didn’t exist during the reformation era doesn’t mean it wasn’t invented in a Protestant denomination church later.

I have seen many explanations as to where this abuse came from but none of them claim a Catholic start to the abuse.

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