Paul vs Jesus

Jesus says according to Matthew, he has not come to abolish the law

“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets ; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law; until everything is accomplished. Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the Law, you will certainly not enter the Kingdom of Heaven.” Matthew 5:17-20

However, in utter contradiction to Jesus Christ’s affirmation of the eternal validity of the Torah, as long as Heaven and Earth are extant, Paul blasphemously claims that Christ came to “destroy the barrier… by abolishing in his flesh the Torah.” This alone is proof that Paul is an outright Imposter and Liar.

“But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ. For he himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, by abolishing in his flesh the Law with its commandments and regulations.” Ephesians 2:13-15

It is clear that Paul was creating a new religious perspective, one not spoken of by Christ himself, nor the Prophets before him.

again, taken out of context…
Eph 2
13 But now in Christ Jesus, you that used to be so far off have been brought close, by the blood of Christ.
14 For he is the peace between us, and has made the two into one entity and broken down the barrier which used to keep them apart, by destroying in his own person the hostility,
15 that is, the Law of commandments with its decrees. His purpose in this was, by restoring peace, to create a single New Man out of the two of them,
16 and through the cross, to reconcile them both to God in one Body; in his own person he killed the hostility.
17 He came to bring the good news of peace to you who were far off and peace to those who were near.
18 Through him, then, we both in the one Spirit have free access to the Father.
19 So you are no longer aliens or foreign visitors; you are fellow-citizens with the holy people of God and part of God’s household.

try reading the whole thing for a change first :wink:

The ordinances regarding foods in the OT covenant were not a part of the Law–they were a matter of obedience and disciplinary in nature. St. Paul is not contradicting Christ and neither were was the First Council of Jerusalem (Acts 15). The Law that is immutable is the Ten Commandments, not dietary laws, etc.

:thumbsup:

Site your source please…

11 Do not forget, then, that there was a time when you who were gentiles by physical descent, termed the uncircumcised by those who speak of themselves as the circumcised by reason of a physical operation,

12 do not forget, I say, that you were at that time separate from Christ and excluded from membership of Israel, aliens with no part in the covenants of the Promise, limited to this world, without hope and without God.

13 But now in Christ Jesus, you that used to be so far off have been brought close, by the blood of Christ.

14 For he is the peace between us, and has made the two into one entity and broken down the barrier which used to keep them apart, by destroying in his own person the hostility,

15 that is, the Law of commandments with its decrees. His purpose in this was, by restoring peace, to create a single New Man out of the two of them,

16 and through the cross, to reconcile them both to God in one Body; in his own person he killed the hostility.

http://www.catholic.org/bible/book.php?id=56

Della, you pre-empted my next question. How do you know it is not part of the law, the law I presume is a reference to the Torah, and not limited to the 10 commandments.

If Christians did not understand Paul’s contradictory statement as I have, then why do they continue to trade and consume the Pig, even though God in the OT said we must not eat the pig. emphasis on “Must not”. Unless ofcourse you believe Paul when he said Jesus abolished the law.

Leviticus 11:7-8 (New International Version)
7 And the pig, though it has a split hoof completely divided, does not chew the cud; it is unclean for you. 8 You must not eat their meat or touch their carcasses; they are unclean for you.

Famdigy, this article may help you. It doesn’t address the consumption of pork specifically, but it explains in general why Catholics are not bound by the Mosaic Law.

OT - Leviticus - Jewish dietary laws - which I believe muslims picked up on with the pork idea - yes… muslims don’t eat pork, Jews don’t eat pork…!!

But in Leviticus is also states that camel meat is also “UNCLEAN” and NOT for consumption, but muslims eat camel meat.

So, what are you getting at Famdigy with the pork and Leviticus cause if you believe Jewish dietary laws, well then, your koran states camel meat is acceptable, where to the Jews it is not.

And if I dig into the koran and Leviticus, I can probably find other foods forbidden to Jews, but are acceptable and “halal” to muslims.

You went from Paul vs Jesus to pork consumption. You start to remind me now of our old friend planten.

Because there is a difference between the moral law, such as the Ten Commandments and ordinances. The moral law is unchanging–it deals with worship of the one God and our relations with other people. Ordinances are matters of discipline and obedience which are not tied to the moral law.

As I cited in my previous post, the First Council of Jerusalem convened to decide such issues because Gentiles were be converted to the Faith. They understood perfectly well the difference and ruled accordingly, understanding that the ordinances and disciplinary laws had been fulfilled in the death of Christ. These ordinances no longer had the force of law but have been fulfilled since the family of God would now be all peoples not just those of Israel.

How Sunnis and Shias lie

5.43. But why do they come to thee for decision, when they have (their own) law before them?- therein is the (plain) command of Allah. yet even after that, they would turn away. For they are not (really) People of Faith.

  1. It was We who revealed the law (to Moses): therein was guidance and light. By its standard have been judged the Jews, by the prophets who bowed (as in Islam) to Allah.s will, by the rabbis and the doctors of law: for to them was entrusted the protection of Allah.s book, and they were witnesses thereto: therefore fear not men, but fear me, and sell not my signs for a miserable price. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (no better than) Unbelievers.

  2. We ordained therein for them: “Life for life, eye for eye, nose or nose, ear for ear, tooth for tooth, and wounds equal for equal.” But if any one remits the retaliation by way of charity, it is an act of atonement for himself. And if any fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (No better than) wrong-doers.

  3. And in their footsteps We sent Jesus the son of Mary, confirming the Law that had come before him: We sent him the Gospel: therein was guidance and light, and confirmation of the Law that had come before him: a guidance and an admonition to those who fear Allah.

47.** Let the people of the Gospel judge by what Allah hath revealed therein. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (no better than) those who rebel**.

  1. To thee We sent the Scripture in truth, confirming the scripture that came before it, and guarding it in safety: so judge between them by what Allah hath revealed, and follow not their vain desires, diverging from the Truth that hath come to thee. To each among you have we prescribed a law and an open way. If Allah had so willed, He would have made you a single people, but (His plan is) to test you in what He hath given you: so strive as in a race in all virtues. The goal of you all is to Allah. it is He that will show you the truth of the matters in which ye dispute;

  2. And this (He commands): Judge thou between them by what Allah hath revealed, and follow not their vain desires, but beware of them lest they beguile thee from any of that (teaching) which Allah hath sent down to thee. And if they turn away, be assured that for some of their crime it is Allah.s purpose to punish them. And truly most men are rebellious.

  3. Do they then seek after a judgment of (the days of) ignorance? But who, for a people whose faith is assured, can give better judgment than Allah.

Here the Koran makes it clear that though the Koran, Gospel and OT are three different communities of believers, they are one in faith. There are believers among these communities and non believers.

Sunnis take these verses as meaning theocratic laws in an Islamic state. There is the famous hadith in Sahih Muslim which they say explains the meaning of these verses.:

'Abdullah bin 'Umar, may Allah be pleased with them, reported:

A Jew and a Jewess, who had committed adultery, were brought to Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him). Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him)** came to the Jews and said: What do you find in Torah for those guilty of adultery?** They said: We darken their faces and make them ride on the donkey with their faces turned to the opposite direction (and their backs touching each other), and then they are taken round (the city). He said: Bring Torah if you are truthful. They brought it and recited it until when they came to the verse pertaining to stoning, the person who was reading placed his hands on the verse pertaining to stoning, and read (only that which was) between his hands and what was subsequent to that. 'Abdullah bin Salam who was at that time with the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said: Command him (the reciter) to lift his hand. He lifted it and there was, underneath that, the verse pertaining to stoning. Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) pronounced judgment about both of them and they were stoned. 'Abdullah bin 'Umar said: I was one of those who stoned them, and I saw him (the Jew) protecting her (the Jewess) with his body.

Of course this hadith is a fabrication(I believe, I have no proof). **Why, because what would happen if the adulterers were Christians and the Gospel was used? There is no theocracy in the Gospel. It is quite clear the Koran is not talking about a theocracy where Muslims live by Islamic law and Jews and Christians by Christian and Judaic law, as the case in the so called Islamic state. The Koran is saying each community should take its religious laws from the scriptures **and not from(I believe) the talmud, the Church and their trinity and the so called hadith of Muslims.

This is because the religion of the scriptures are one, but they are followed by different communities. These communities have abandoned the scriptures for man made dogmas with each accusing the other of disbelief regardless of an individuals faith in God and the hereafter.

It is clear the Sunnis could not bring a hadith of a theocratic nature regarding Christians so they brough a Jew instead to twist the verse to mean the law of man and not the law of God. It is clear that the same hadith could not have worked with a Christian and a Gospel.

Let the people of the Gospel judge by what Allah hath revealed therein. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (no better than) those who rebel.

The Koran then say:

“To each among you have we prescribed a law and an open way”

Its obvious that the Koran means to judge your religion by the laws of the Gospel. Take your theology and rights and wrongs from the scriptures and not eslewhere. **It is very clear that the hadith was made to change the meaning to mean to rule by the common laws you find in the Torah and Koran. However they missed the Gospel. How would the prophet rule against Christians commiting adultery or even stealing when there is nothing about such things in the Gospel? Yet the Koran says "

“To each among you have we prescribed a law and an open way**”

The theocratic nature of the scriptures can change from scriptures to scriptures and in fact becuause Jesus never even ruled or governed you don’t see verses in the Gospel about communal laws for him to implement on his subjects. These communal laws are human laws that change with time but the Sunni jurists twisted that verse to go beyond what it saying.

Plus I wonder if the Torah has been corrupted and tampered with and has been abrogated as Sunnis claim, why on Earth will the Koran order these communities to abide by its laws and follow its teachings.?

It very clear this hadith was made to fulfill the needs of a theocracy by turning these communal laws into a theocracy thats never changing. And I wonder if these communal laws were Divine why on Earth do they change from the Torah to the Koran and why on Earth did the Gospel not reveal them? Because Jesus did not need them, thats why.

Sunnis and Shias can never answer these question. Thats how I know the hadith was fabricated. Thats how I know Shariah law of the kind they are talking about is a myth. The Koran says God ordered the Israelites to rule by justice. This is also what the Koran and Gospel says. It never gave details since justice can have different implimentations but the same principle. But the communal laws of the Torah and the Koran are human laws and was no different than the laws of the pagans. The Torah and Gosple simply modified them to make them more justice. The Koran came to change the religion of the people of Arabia and their surroundings. It never came to bring forth a unique justice system.

Sunnis and Shias lie.

Koranist,take your anger somewhere else ,because what you wrote has nothing to do with the topic ,so don’t ruin an interesting topic…

Trying to say Paul lied and Paul abrogated Jesus, its all nonsense. he did nothing of the sort. Sunnis and Shias never say the truth. The Koran itself says it came to confirm the previous scriptures and Jesus himself said he came to confirm the Torah and the previous scriptures. Paul was no different. You guys believe in abrogation and that Muhamamd came with a new Shariah and all that stuff. Plus you believe the previous scriptures are corrupted and have been abrogated. Paul ain’t got nothing to do with all this.

He didn’t change anything, he realized that Pharisiaic Judaism was built on oral traditions and legalism. He realized Jesus was saying the truth. And that God does not confine himself with traditions and legalism. You guys just lie a lot. I am not angry, I am exposing you. You are angry cause you have been exposed. I know why you guys hate Paul, cause you don’t believe in the crucifixion and you don’t believe in the Gospel.

Paul had nothing to do with the trinity, and this is what Christians don’t want to admit.

  1. On the time of the coming of the Lord:

Paul says:

Rom.13
[12] the night is far gone, the day is at hand.

Jesus says:

Luke.21
[8] Take heed that you are not led astray; for many will come in my name,
saying, . . . `The time is at hand!’ Do not go after them.

  1. On the source of the Truth and the true gospel:

Paul says:

1Cor.2
[13] And we impart this in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual truths to those who possess the Spirit.
Gal.1
[12] For I did not receive it from man, nor was I taught it, but it came through a revelation of Jesus Christ.

Jesus says:

John.17
[14] I have given them thy word;
[17] Sanctify them in the truth; thy word is truth.

  1. On the God of the dead:

Paul says:

Rom.14
[9] For to this end Christ died and lived again, that he might be Lord both of the dead and of the living.

Jesus says:

Luke.20
[38] Now he is not God of the dead, but of the living;

  1. On the sum of the commandments:

Paul says:

Rom.13
[9] The commandments, “You shall not commit adultery, You shall not kill, You shall not steal, You shall not covet,” and any other commandment, are summed up in this sentence, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself.

Jesus says:

Matt.22
[37] And he said to him, "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.
[38] This is the great and first commandment.
[39] And a second is like it, You shall love your neighbor as yourself.
[40] On these two commandments depend all the law and the prophets.

  1. On whom God has mercy:

Paul says:

Rom.9
[15] For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”
[16] So it depends not upon man’s will or exertion, but upon God’s mercy.
[18] So then he has mercy upon whomever he wills, and he hardens the heart of whomever he wills.

Jesus says:

Matt.5
[7] Blessed are the merciful, for they shall obtain mercy.

  1. On forgiveness of trespasses:

Paul says:

Eph.1
[7] In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace
Rom.4
[25] who was put to death for our trespasses and raised for our justification.

Jesus says:

Matt.6
[14] For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father also will forgive you;
[15] but if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

  1. On being justified:

Paul says:

Rom.3
[24] they are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus,
[28] For we hold that a man is justified by faith apart from works of law.
Rom.5
[9] Since, therefore, we are now justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God.

Jesus says:

Matt.12
[37] for by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.

  1. On the cost of eternal life:

Paul says:

Rom.6
[23] For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Jesus says:

Matt.19
[29] And every one who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or lands, for my name’s sake, will receive a hundredfold, and inherit eternal life.
Luke.14
[28] For which of you, desiring to build a tower, does not first sit down and count the cost, whether he has enough to complete it?
[33] So therefore, whoever of you does not renounce all that he has cannot be my disciple.

  1. On what is honorable among men:

Paul says:

2Cor.8
[21] for we aim at what is honorable not only in the Lord’s sight but also in the sight of men.
Rom.12
[17] Repay no one evil for evil, but take thought for what is noble in the sight of all men.
Rom.14
[18] he who thus serves Christ is acceptable to God and approved by men.
1Cor.10
[33] just as I try to please all men in everything I do, not seeking my own advantage, but that of many, that they may be saved.

Jesus says:

Luke.16
[15] But he said to them, You are those who justify yourselves before men, but God knows your hearts; for what is exalted among men is an abomination in the sight of God.
Luke.6
[26] Woe to you, when all men speak well of you, for so their fathers did to the false prophets.

  1. On Dying:

Paul says:

I Corinthians 15

31: I protest, brethren, by my pride in you which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die every day!

Jesus says:

John 11
26: and whoever lives and believes in me shall never die.

  1. On the basis of judgment:

Paul says:

Rom.2
[12] All who have sinned without the law will also perish without the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law.

Jesus says:

John.12
[48] He who rejects me and does not receive my sayings has a judge; the word that I have spoken will be his judge on the last day.

  1. On the commandments and eternal life:

Paul says:

Rom.7
[9] I was once alive apart from the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died;
[10] the very commandment which promised life proved to be death to me.

Jesus says:

Matt.19
[17] And he said to him, Why do you ask me about what is good? One there is who is good. If you would enter life, keep the commandments.

  1. On your father:

Paul says:

1Cor.4
[15] For though you have countless guides in Christ, you do not have many fathers. For I became your father in Christ Jesus through the gospel.
Phlm.1
[10] I appeal to you for my child, Ones’imus, whose father I have become in my imprisonment.

Jesus says:

Matt.23

[9] And call no man your father on earth, for you have one Father, who is in heaven.

  1. On qualifying for eternal life:

Paul says:

Rom.5
[21] so that, as sin reigned in death, grace also might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Jesus says:

John.5
[24] Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears my word and believes him who sent me, has eternal life; he does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.

  1. On the destiny of the creation (heavens and earth):

Paul says:

Rom.8
[21] because the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to decay and obtain the glorious liberty of the children of God.

Jesus says:

Matt.24
[35] Heaven and earth will pass away,

  1. On the destiny of the Law and the Prophets:

Paul says:

Rom.10
[4] For Christ is the end of the law, that every one who has faith may be justified.

Jesus says:

Matt.5
[17] Think not that I have come to abolish the law and the prophets; I have come not to abolish them but to fulfil them.
[18] For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the law until all is accomplished.

  1. On the number and identity of teachers:

Paul says:

1Cor.12
[28] And God has appointed in the church first apostles, second prophets, third, teachers,
Eph.4
[11] And his gifts were that some should be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors and teachers,
1Tim.2
[7] For this I was appointed a preacher and apostle (I am telling the truth, I am not lying), a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth.
2Tim.1
[11] For this gospel I was appointed a preacher and apostle and teacher,

Jesus says:

Matt.23
[8] But you are not to be called rabbi, for you have one teacher, and you are all brethren.

  1. On the number to be saved:

Paul says:

Rom.11
[25] Lest you be wise in your own conceits, I want you to understand this mystery, brethren: a hardening has come upon part of Israel, until the full number of the Gentiles come in,
[26] and so all Israel will be saved; as it is written, "The Deliverer will come from Zion, he will banish ungodliness from Jacob.

Jesus says:

Matt.7
[13] Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy, that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many.
[14] For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few.

  1. On the number and identity of pastors (shepherds):

Paul says:

Eph.4
[11] And his gifts were that some should be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors (shepherds) and teachers,

Jesus says:

John.10
[16] And I have other sheep, that are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will heed my voice. So there shall be one flock, one shepherd.

  1. On the number and identity of leaders:

Paul says:

1Cor.4
[15] For though you have countless leaders in Christ . . …

Jesus says:

Matt.23
[10] Neither be called leaders, for you have one leader, the Christ.

21: On total depravity:

Paul says:

Rom.3

[9] What then? Are we Jews any better off? No, not at all; for I have already charged that all men, both Jews and Greeks, are under the power of sin,
[10] as it is written: "None is righteous, no, not one;
[22] For there is no distinction;
[23] since all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, . . …

Jesus says:

Matt.12
[35] The good man out of his good treasure brings forth good, and the evil man out of his evil treasure brings forth evil.
Luke.6
[45] The good man out of the good treasure of his heart produces good, and the evil man out of his evil treasure produces evil; for out of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaks.
Matt.23
[35] that upon you may come all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of innocent Abel to the blood of Zechari’ah the son of Barachi’ah, whom you murdered between the sanctuary and the altar.

  1. On how one becomes a child of God:

Paul says:

Rom.8
[23] and not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the first fruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies.
Gal.4
[5] to redeem those who were under the law, so that we might receive adoption as sons.

Jesus says:

John.3
[3] Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is begotten from above,* he cannot see the kingdom of God.
[6] That which is begotten of the flesh is flesh, and that which is begotten of the Spirit is spirit.
[7] Do not marvel that I said to you, `You must be begotten from above.*

  • John 3:3 and 3:7 are the author’s translations. These differ from the RSV only in the expression “begotten from above” that replaces "born anew’ in the RSV. “Born anew” does not represent the fullness of what Jesus is stating here, and does not correspond to the literatal translation of the Greek, anothen (a()nwqen).

Wow…

Poor old Paul, boy did he get a wrong number…:frighten:

Context. You miss it.

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