Sorry, chosen but you aren’t reading history correctly.
I’m not sure where your ‘Jewish guilt’ vs. catholic innocence tirade came from. I made no statement that Jews are ‘guilty’ while catholics aren’t. In fact, I make no distinction between the chosen people in the OT versus the chosen people in the NT. We’re both flawed and fallen and prone to sin.
Your catholic scapegoating indicates a selective reading of history. Persecution of Jews predates the catholic church. The hatred and persecution of Jews simply does not have its source in christianity in general or catholicism in particular. Its source is the fact that God chose YOU to be his chosen people and to make your story HIS story so much so that when He came to earth incarnate it was as a Jew. That POs the devil beyond any and all reason. Remember that the devil’s MAJOR flaw is vanity and pride. It is what was the source of HIS fall from first among the angels to poster-boy of evil itself. Anyways, that is the most plausible reason I, as a catholic see for humanity’s (even pre-christian) predeliction for persecuting the Jewish people.
Since you reject the claims of Jesus to divinity, I can see why you would scapegoat christianity for it all. But I hope the pre-existence of anti-judaism bothers you somewhere deep inside.
I made no such statement about Jewish guilt v Catholic innocence either. Neither do I think the treatment given to Jews was deserved.
I was pointing out that if one is determined to tar the whole of a particular faith, or a particular people, uniformly with the brush of being morally weak, one doesn’t need a heck of a lot of actual evidence to do so, one just needs a preconception that they are so and can then always find examples of bad Jews/Catholics/Muslims/Hindus to fit. Such could be (indeed has been) done to Jews as much as Christians or Catholics, and with as little reason.
We are all human, all morally inconsistent, even the great men of faith, be they Moses, David and Solomon, or the Popes and leaders of the Inquisition. Moses, David and Solomon had God-given authority in spite of their failings and weaknesses, so do our Popes and leaders.
The Mortara case was Immoral. It always shamed me that this poor Jewish boy was taken from his family and on befriending the Pope used to play hide and seek with the Pope in the Vatican. I believe Pio Nono would sometimes ask playfully: “Where is the Boy?” in playing with him, oblivious to the pain the boy’s family was going through. This always tremendously upset me hearing this episode ; the New York Times and some Christians protested. I found the whole episode shocking.
Again some will counter one must recall this was during the turbulent period of the 19th Century in Vatican history when popes were imprisoned for their Church by secular authorities (Napoleon,etc.) and the Church lived in an entirely different age back then. This however, while true, does not excuse it.
On the Spanish Inquisition, recall also that this happened in the period of Christian/Muslim/Jewish conflicts on the Iberian Peninsula and that the Spaniards had recently completed the Reconquista of Spain from the Muslims. The Reconquista was an incredibly violent period in Spanish History, and I think this conflict with Islam had and still has a profound effect on Spanish Catholicism. (Indeed Bin Laden still craves and dreams of reconquering Andalusia - Spain).
On the expulsion of the Jews from Spain, it always struck me as more than coincidental that around 1492 Spain was the strongest power on Earth. With the expulsion of the Jews around this time, Spain began a continual decline in world power and societal advancement and Spain was soon overtaken by the British Empire. Sephardic Jews expelled from Spain and fleeing to Holland helped turn the Netherlands into a major power and innovator. Spain’s loss. In 1263 the Spanish King called upon perhaps the most learned Jew of the time, Nahmanides, to debate Christian leaders in a Great Debate along the lines of Christianity’s truth vs. the truth of Judaism. The debates accomplished nothing and only fueled the flames of coming religious conflict.
On the Inquisition in general, however, I believe the modern media have done a tremendously successful hatchet job in making the Church’s history into one big Bloody Inquisition and Darkness Personified (I have seen this 4-part series on the Inquisition). They selectively pick out the worst examples, which is their right of course.
For all its errors, the Church’s primary role in salvation, in monasteries and religious setting up homes for the poor and sick, helping the needy, praying and striving for the Good, far outweighs the evils that were committed in the Church’s history. This story always goes unrecorded in the modern media who continually blacken Christianity as if it were one supremely backward step for Mankind. We then forget how much of our present civilization we owe to Christianity. As Jaroslaw Pelikan always stressed, never forget the worth of the tremendous Tradition we have inherited in Christ and the Church. I do not believe the Church’s history in anyway is predominantly one of obscurantism and evil. Aquinas, Mother Teresa, etc…This is the True Church.
It is interesting to note, however little comfort it is, that most recent studies of the Spanish Inquisition have found the figures of those put to death grossly exaggerated. Government authorities throughout Europe were responsible for more deaths and I think such things as burning of witches occurred more in Protestant countries, but I am not entirely sure and willing to be proved wrong.
I just jumped in on this thread, so I hope I have not offended anyone, but felt like typing before I fell asleep. God Bless! Take care chosen people.
This is the type of post I always hope to read on this forum
The point in dealing with matters like Mortara is not to attack today’s Catholics or Catholicism, but to recognize the injustice of the act. Those who would defend this act are expressing an underlying and unacceptable disdain for Jews and Judaism. Bless you for having the moral fortitude to simply state, as you have, that the Mortara case was immoral.
Having recently finished judging a case involving two Al Quida members I am able to state that you are correct in your statement concerning Al Quida. Fundamentalist Islamic groups hold that the Jew and Christian can only live in justice under the rule of Islam. Their goal is to create a fully Islamic world, in the case of Al Quida, by force.
You are also correct, as has been pointed out by others, that it is a historical fact that where the Jews have been welcomed and gathered that area has prospered and where Jews have been expelled or mistreated that area has declined. However, the reason for this is of course a matter for debate and conjecture.
What happened to the Motaras was disgusting and despicable. The treatment of the Jews by the church during the inquisition was vile and immoral. The way they were forced into ghettos and treated so miserably, the papal polices treatment. Forced to identify thenselves by wearing yellow scarves on thier arms, to be discriminated against.
I recoginze this fact and I am truely sorry for the people now past, who had to live in such conditions…
I wasn’t wrong. I have never blamed the Jewish people for anything. I take may full share of the blame for the crucifixion.
How can teaching not lead to behavior? That is just ridiculous…
How is it moral to put a bunch of people in ghettos? How is discrimination moral? Were there no infallible teachings of morality to help people realize this?
These are two questions. The first is something I think everyone intuitively knows. As I heard it once put from a secular perspective, it is seldom difficult to know the right thing to do. Our difficulty usually is in having the courage to do it. In addition to our basic sinful nature, the Church will always have those in it that seek political or economic gain. The Church will always be used as a vehicle for sin for some. Sometimes this is from withing as with corrupt priests, sometimes from without as with corrupt secular rulers of the inquisition.
As far as our level of moral teaching, I have no conception that we have arrived even yet at the pinnacle of moral teaching. God, like a good parent, will only reveal to us what we can understand. When we judge the past by the standards of today, we stand like the teenage judging the child for not being potty trained. In a few centuries, we may appear equally barbaric.
Yes, if only it were possible to teach, and not have another learn… if only we had an example of that… hey, come to think of it, it’s how you’re responding to our correct teaching! So, yes, it’s ridiculous that people don’t understand the difference between teaching correctly and behaving correctly. You can do your part to change that by adjusting your behaviors based on what we are teaching you. To discuss what has happened in the Church, it’s even possible that those who have authority and teach correctly, don’t themselves behave correctly.
The issue of infallibility has nothing at all to do with the behaviors involved in doing things against the teaching, does it? Please do yourself the favor of learning the difference.
A bit of a tirade here, is it not? What you seem to ignore, is that it is also possible to do violence to people through words which exaggerate claims and present unbalanced views thereby violating God’s Commandment against bearing false witness… please stop, think, and become balanced on this which is currently lacking.
Not at all. Merely presenting an instance of how particular cases of repugnant behaviour by people of a certain faith/nationality/age group/economic class can be used to smear the group wholesale by those who are determined to do so.
Human nature being what it is, EVERY form of moral code tends to be a case of ‘do as I say not as I do’, no? Without that large or small gap between the standards we set for ourselves and others, and our actual behaviour, there’s no incentive for moral progress - and little room for the beautiful characteristics of humility, empathy and forgiveness!
My tirade is only going off the evidence I saw presented in the documentary I say. The journals of the people that wrote for the time, the records that were kept and the images that were drawn to depict what was going on…
Unfortunately I’m biased and it would be a lie for me to say so. I hate organized religion to the core of my being, being raised in the catholic church has made me bitter. But you also have a bias, to defend your church regardless of the mistakes it has made, if the church had participated or encouraged the holocaust I’m sure you would defend that to, in some way or the other
See there is a moral code… And then there is a claim of moral authority. Only religious figures really make that claim. The rest of us all try and work it out together and put things like the Genva convention in place.
In all honesty I will never understand the mind games that people play when it comes to thigns like this. It just makes no sense to me.
If there was an ultimate moral authority it shold have been good and always be good, in preaching and in teaching… But if there were just people in differnt kinds of hats… well then I can understand the racisum and biggotry…
The plight of the jews under the fist of the church is a fact. However the way in which i view it is different from a rigerous catholic, who will try and validate the most abhorant of crimes, In some way or the other.