Pennsylvania Forced To Remove Hundreds Of Deaths From Coronavirus Death Count After Coroners Raise Red Flags

Cathoholic . . . .

For example: You don’t sign of guy who is relatively young who dies with a blood alcohol of 55 who has an incidental finding of corona virus as dying of corona virus.

That is not accurate.

LeafByNiggle’s response?

Nice straw man. I never said such a death ought to be counted.

I knew you would say that.
That is WHY I used this example.
Because it was a REAL one (from Colorado).

I know you did not say THIS example.

But you are not admitting the PRINCIPLE.

Just admit it.
Just say: “You are right Cathoholic. Some of these Corona Virus deaths HAVE been overstated.”

But you can’t.

Even with OBVIOUS examples like this one.

EVEN when the Medical Examiners are admitting it, you can’t seem to do that.

Which suggests to me you made up your mind, and then attempted to fit in parts of the evidence to your pre-drawn conclusions.

That’s what it suggests to me anyways.

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Maximus1 (Newsom in California and Wolf in PA is submitting to Trump according to Maximus1) . . .

You offer striking evidence that Trump and many Governor’s and politicians are doing everything in their power to understate infection.


I’m sorry but I just am not going to take these “arguments” seriously.

You go ahead and keep waving the pom poms
and I will let you do that.

There is probably some of both: undercounting with regard to those who die at home and the homeless who die of the virus; overcounting as in the PA cases in which those with pre-existing conditions may have died of the condition triggered by the virus. The undercounting and overcounting most likely balance one another. In such matters, it is very difficult to get a truly accurate count.

Cathoholic . . .

You mean GOVERNMENT has to “find those infected and isolate them”!!?
That implies a Government FORCE to do this!

LeafByNiggle . . .

most people welcome the authority of the society to protect the public health. There is nothing so unusual about enforced quarantine of infectious people. It is right and proper.

“Most people” is your “reasoning”?

What about those that don’t want Government hanging around them?
What if their test results come in later and they are off camping.
Do you have to check in with Government to camp?
Should you be rousted out of your tent by Government if some test comes back positive for RSV, or Influenza or whatever (because all these arguments can and will be used for those infections too)??

Do you have to tell Mom (Government) where you are camping?
Or should we just have Google be our new mom and Government can get that information from them?


LeafByNiggle . . .

The value of testing to public health is to find those infected and isolate them AND TRACE THEIR CONTACTS.

(emphasis mine)

Cathoholic . . . .

That implies we know everybody’s contacts in the first place.
This suggests a nanny state that “knows” all your contacts in the first place.

LeafByNiggle . . .

When someone is found to be infected they are asked who they contacted in the recent past.

Leaf. That is NOT a complete contact tracing and you know it.
When I go to Mass, I don’t keep a list of the people around me.
(Do you have to “sign-in” for Mass?)
Nor do I when I go to the big box stores.
(Should you tell Government every time you go to Wal Mart? Just in case??)

This freight factor from the left is disproportionate.

They will tell you (on the news) there is 90,000 deaths. They love the death count.

OK. But will destroying the free country save viral infections? No.
Either way you will have deaths.


The ONLY possible way Government can trace everyone Leaf that is if they KNOW.

The only possible way they can KNOW is if they have contact tracing capability.

And when this is legislated or attempted, guys who think left . . . FOLD.
Many of them even LIKE it to a certain extent.

They LIKE the nanny state (because of their low-ball view of people in the first place).

China FORCES all this and they cannot put the corona genie back in the bottle here.

You should learn from them.

This is not worth throwing away freedom.

You do not gain your life . . . . but you DO lose your freedom.

1/2 . . .

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2/2 . . . .

Leaf. You have made up your mind.
But to other readers here:
Please don’t fall for this “only-MORE-Government-can-save-us" attitude.

The Catechism warns us of this attitude.

Leaf now resorting to name calling for people that don’t want Government agents at their home or work or wherever . . .

Again, only very anti-social paranoids would refuse to cooperate with such a life-saving effort.

Anti-social paranoids if you don’t want Government “under the hood”.


Leaf . . . .

If we had done such testing and contact tracing the impact on our economy would have been minimal.

How can you do “testing” on 300 million people with no tests and a brand new virus?

If the hoola magoola virus strikes tomorrow how many tests
do you think can be done?


We can make them (and we did) but you can only do that so fast.
Like I have said before (quoting Chesterton) . . . .
You cannot grow a beard in a fit of passion.

Think about what you are saying Leaf.

Now you will object and say “well foreign outfits had tests”.

They had to make them too.

And we can’t order tests from foreign outfits until we know they are good. (And they are not going to have 300 million “spares” sitting around.)

Spain had enormous terrible fallout from using quick but lousy foreign tests.

If Trump did that your guys would be criticizing Trump 24/7.
Check that. Your guys criticize Trump 24/7 no matter what.

You might argue Taiwan did great.

But we are not Taiwan.

They don’t have the people from the whole world entering and exiting the country daily the way we do in America.

And look at the malice from your guys when Trump shut down the travel he did!

Leaf . . . .

We are only talking about mandatory testing and isolation of infected individuals, not general travel orders.

If you really believe that, I want to offer you the chance to criticize Taiwan right now. They shut down travel at least in and out of their country.

Because unless you are being tested, you can be a silent carrier.
With no travel restrictions you can become a silent spreader.
Just like Pritzker’s wife could have been.

Not only that but the PRINCIPLE is lost on you.

You are missing the point about a caste system where some are fined or jailed for travel restriction violations
but these same restrictions are ignored if they are from Governor Pritzker’s wife.

Or if Obama is out golfing disobeying stay-home orders and bringing a posse of Secret Service agents with him.

What kind of sense does that make?

Leaf. You have not made a convincing argument on ANY of your points here.
You seem OK with a police and nanny state, for virtually no benefit.
You will have to do that without me.

PaulinVA . . . .

I told you that medical examiners are saying they can’t get tests

Cathoholic . . . .

I don’t believe that. I think someone gave you old or inaccurate information.

Even I was recently offered a test before a procedure despite not having symptoms.

I think your information is wrong.


I went back and looked at the first three articles.

Your Business Insider and CNN article are basically the same and were from early April.

That has substantially changed.

As I said, I had a test OFFERED to me without asking for it. (I have to have a lot of medical intervention. Long story and I am not going to make this thread about “me” personally.)

They are just parroting the same CNN story line.

From your Business Insider link . . . .

Coroners across the US are struggling to acquire already limited test kits to correctly identity suspected coronavirus deaths, CNN reported.

Your Clarion Ledger source was newer (late April) and finished up saying . . .

Faulk noted he hadn’t had any deaths that appeared to be coronavirus-related since mid April, saying, “thank God for that.”

Now he questions if the tests will come at all.

“Here it is May coming up, still we’re searching for the needle in the haystack and there’s not a needle in there,” he said.

Well I think they should do a follow-up story because I KNOW there are tests now. A lot of them.

Testing is not a “needle in the haystack” anymore.

As I said. I think we should have home testing too (with home results just like with pregnancy tests).

Now he questions if the tests will come at all.

When I see things like this in an article, it really takes away from their credibility if they are not right.

This person was not right.

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FAUCI said deaths are understated. The guy on Trump’s team.

No, I don’t think I’m wrong. This is totally a discussion about what a convid-19 death actually is, and what the immediate cause of death is versus the intermediate cause of death, and whether covid-19 as the intermediate cause of death is actually a “covid-19 death”.

See the above. I admit there is confusion and fuzziness. Some of that is created by how that data are being reported, and part of the fuzziness is being artificially injected.

Why would government’s want to limit the definition of Covid-19 death? Including state and local?
This is the question people need an answer to, as they read the many efforts to reduce the numbers.

I am a little confused here.
If it is so difficult to get an accurate count, how can we claim the over and under counts balance?

The count itself is political.
First, these are human beings. A lot of them. Thousands!
Each one involves family members and friends. Hospital workers who lived the death.
The use of numbers is a device to avoid intimacy.
The stories about raising and lowering numbers adds a game quality. A score. Making humanity more distant.
These are our neighbors dying all around us. Like the Pharisee in the Good Samaritan, maintaining distance promotes the ability to not care. We are all guilty of it to an extent, but as Catholics, it really is our revelation to recognise and share

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This is an example of the lack of leadership by the US government.

The CDC or whomever should have announced early on, in February or March, what the criteria is for a covid-19 death. Should have been announced so we could have a discussion world wide about the criteria. Then, all entities would have the ability to collect and report data to a standard.

Now, I tend to think that medical examiners already have a standard, and I think the standard is not applied equally by every state or jurisdiction, which is one of the things leading to the confusion.

But, from a data collection point of view, publishing the standard up front is better than trying to go back and reevaluate based on new criteria.

Respectfully, revisionism is the coin of the realm.

If you think government should not be allowed to restrict your movements when you have covid-19, you are challenging not only common sense, but Catholic social teaching as well.

Profiteering in war time is not a sacred right.
Wars, PANDEMICS, natural disasters, all affect liberty and obligation to nation and countrymen.
This is a secular bare minimum. Add CATHOLOCISM as a faith, and the injections of obligation to brother becomes clearer still

Florida coronavirus database manager says she was removed for refusing to censor data

The architect and manager of Florida’s coronavirus dashboard, which has been praised by experts including White House coronavirus task force coordinator Deborah Birx, says she has been removed from her position.

Rebekah Jones, who is credited with creating the Florida Department of Health data portal, told CBS12 News she was removed because she refused to censor data and “manually change data to drum up support for the plan to reopen.” In an email to other researchers and members of the public who enrolled to receive updates on the portal, Jones announced her May 5 ouster, which she said was beyond her “division’s control.”

Her removal was first reported by Florida Today.

“As a word of caution, I would not expect the new team to continue the same level of accessibility and transparency that I made central to the process during the first two months,” she wrote in the email to those who followed the database. “After all, my commitment to both is largely (arguably entirely) the reason I am no longer managing it."

You cannot help but notice the volume of news stories signaling that people who are restarting business , want to censor all news that the virus persists. In fact, excluding NYC which is declining in infection slowly,it looks like much of the rest of the nation is on the verge of infection spiking.
Life and health has taken a back seat.

That is becoming evident.

Trump won’t win reelection unless the economy is humming. [Narrator’s voice: It won’t be.]

Plus, some people just can’t maintain the quarantine for a long period of time. I don’t know why.

Coroners. . . .

Deaths have been overstated by quite a bit.

Cathoholic . . .

You are wrong Paul. Deaths have been overstated by quite a bit.

PaulinVA . . .

No, I don’t think I’m wrong.

To the readers here.
Draw your own conclusions.

Pauline is right

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