People are going to far with SSPX intolerance

I don’t attend an SSPX church, but I personally know quite a few people who do and I brought up a lot of the reasons why others find them schismatic and wrong. THey shook their heads and told me that a lot of that is wrong. NOt every SSPX church is so far off from “normal” masses. I think it is really sad that one of the only real traditional masses has been so badly portrayed. I read books, I read the Pope’s statement and honestly I think it is a joke. The Pope isn’t ALWAYS infalliable, only when he speaks Ex Cathedra is he considered so. He allowed SSPX to be started, he allowed Lefabvre to have one bishop and even Lefabvre told him that he spoke on his own behalf and not on the behalf of any other SSPX memeber. I know that both sides have issues, mainly pride. I think that we need to embrace more masses like the kind given at SSPX churches because they certainly show more reverence for the Eucharist than a lot of masses that I go to. THe priests that come from normal seminaries (as in not legionarres of Christ) are not standing up for the faith completely, they bend to the will of the public for fear of “losing” members of the church due to Catholicisms harsh rejection of waht is popular in the world today.

People are going too far with intolerance of the Pope.

~~ the phoenix

You do know that it has nothing to do with the Mass itself that they celebrate, but the attitude of the celebrants, right?

[quote=migurl]I don’t attend an SSPX church, but I personally know quite a few people who do and I brought up a lot of the reasons why others find them schismatic and wrong. THey shook their heads and told me that a lot of that is wrong. NOt every SSPX church is so far off from “normal” masses. I think it is really sad that one of the only real traditional masses has been so badly portrayed. I read books, I read the Pope’s statement and honestly I think it is a joke. The Pope isn’t ALWAYS infalliable, only when he speaks Ex Cathedra is he considered so. He allowed SSPX to be started, he allowed Lefabvre to have one bishop and even Lefabvre told him that he spoke on his own behalf and not on the behalf of any other SSPX memeber. I know that both sides have issues, mainly pride. I think that we need to embrace more masses like the kind given at SSPX churches because they certainly show more reverence for the Eucharist than a lot of masses that I go to. THe priests that come from normal seminaries (as in not legionarres of Christ) are not standing up for the faith completely, they bend to the will of the public for fear of “losing” members of the church due to Catholicisms harsh rejection of waht is popular in the world today.
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The problem isn’t the fact that they celebrate the Mass of the 1962 Roman Missal. The problem is, is that they will not submit to the legitimate authority of the Pope. Lefebvre excommunicated himself when he ordained other bishops without the Pope’s consent. The Pope authorized the Priestly Fraternity of St Peter to serve the indult Tridentine Mass. The fact of the matter is, is that they keep on making demands of the Pope, yet will not submit to his legitmate authority.

I know that the Official SSPX Church has its issues with listening to the Pope, but not all SSPX churches are like that. THey pray for the Pope’s intentions and hope that all things end up working out. I just think it’s a shame that everyone else is ganging up on them.

I ddn’t mean that the Pope is a joke, just that there are a lot of Lay people out there saying that the SSPX is heretical because of its traditional stance when the Pope never said anything like that.

[quote=migurl]I know that the Official SSPX Church has its issues with listening to the Pope, but not all SSPX churches are like that. THey pray for the Pope’s intentions and hope that all things end up working out.
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Why pray for the Pope’s intentions if you don’t believe in them? The SSPX may pay lip-service to the Pope and his bishops, but they are sedevacantists in practice (or semi-sedevacantists). They seriously need to work that out if they want reconciliation.

Have you noticed also that they look at themselves as the true Church of Christ? In their minds, a deal with “modernist” Rome would be the demise of catholic Tradition. In other words, they, and not Rome, are the Pillar of Truth.

Yet another bad fruit from the SSPX is that it has created a schismatic mentality in many of its members. An SSPXer will not want anything to do with his local bishop. Instead of fighting the good fight from within, he/she is content with attacking from the outside, and its usually a very uncharitable fight.

I just think it’s a shame that everyone else is ganging up on them.

It’s worse that the Pope has to suffer the attacks nearly the entire world: atheists, pagans, protestants and now catholics such as those who follow the SSPX.

The problem is, SSPX is a schismatic sect.

Like other ‘reformers’ they may not have started out intending to start a new church, but they have now done so.

migurl,

I see no difference between the disobedience shown by the SSPX and that shown by the leaders of the schism of St. Stanislaus Kostka Parish in the City of St. Louis.

See more here:
stlouisreview.com/abpcolumn.php?abpid=9772

I suggest the SSPX begin to listen to St. Pius X:

If one loves the Pope, one does not stop to ask the precise limits to which this duty of obedience extends… one does not seek to restrict the domain within which he can or should make his wishes felt; one does not oppose to the Pope’s authority that of others, however learned they may be, who differ from him.* For however great their learning, they must be lacking in holiness, for there can be no holiness in dissension from the Pope*.” (Pope St. Pius X, allocution of 18 November against dissenting priests, 1912, AAS vol. 4 (1912), 693-695. Selection from p. 695)

I’m sure I’m not the only one who finds that charges of intolerance against a schismatic group that is largely defined by their intolerance is, oh, just a tad ironic…

[quote=Sherlock]I’m sure I’m not the only one who finds that charges of intolerance against a schismatic group that is largely defined by their intolerance is, oh, just a tad ironic…
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:rotfl:

In defense of SSPX… most that I have ever met (laypeople) have a genuine love of God and especially the Blessed Sacrament. That is actually one of their main complaints about VII- the irreverence that has spread (unintentionally).
I attend the FSSP Mass, my sister attends the N.O. mass, my brother attends SSPX Mass. This thread is a rehash of every holiday meal!

My children attend a SSPX school. This school allows my kids to go there, even though I can’t pay, so that they will receive a Catholic education.
The diocesan schools wouldn’t even give me a parish discount (since I attend FSSP and it is not diocese).
My landlord also attends the SSPX Mass. He rents us our house at his cost (we make his mortgage payment) and makes no profit, and also doesn’t kick us out for having 6 kids with 3 bedrooms (there is no apartment complex in the state that would rent to us. They claim there is a fire code requiring a maximum of 2 persons per room, which is untrue).
I do know for a fact that at our SSPX church, there are daily prayers said for the Pope, and before JPII died, fervent novenas offered for his recovery.
I think too often SSPX are thought of as heretical fanatics and villified, and from the other side, N.O. are thought of as modernistic and cafeteria Catholics.
Perhaps we should do away with the generalities and address only specific actions taken by specific people?
Such as, ‘Lefebvre was disobedient’ (not ‘SSPX are all full of pride’); 'Cardinal Law should have taken a stronger stand against certain Mass. politicians (not ‘American Catholics don’t care about the Holy Eucharist’), ‘It was wrong of Fr. XXX to have Aztec dancers during communion’ (yes, actually happens here, even in Chaput territory), (instead of N.O. are pagans bent on ruining the Church). (A comment I have often heard in other discussions).
Just a thought.

[quote=mommyjo2]In defense of SSPX… most that I have ever met (laypeople) have a genuine love of God and especially the Blessed Sacrament. That is actually one of their main complaints about VII- the irreverence that has spread (unintentionally).
I attend the FSSP Mass, my sister attends the N.O. mass, my brother attends SSPX Mass. This thread is a rehash of every holiday meal!

My children attend a SSPX school. This school allows my kids to go there, even though I can’t pay, so that they will receive a Catholic education.
The diocesan schools wouldn’t even give me a parish discount (since I attend FSSP and it is not diocese).
My landlord also attends the SSPX Mass. He rents us our house at his cost (we make his mortgage payment) and makes no profit, and also doesn’t kick us out for having 6 kids with 3 bedrooms (there is no apartment complex in the state that would rent to us. They claim there is a fire code requiring a maximum of 2 persons per room, which is untrue).
I do know for a fact that at our SSPX church, there are daily prayers said for the Pope, and before JPII died, fervent novenas offered for his recovery.
I think too often SSPX are thought of as heretical fanatics and villified, and from the other side, N.O. are thought of as modernistic and cafeteria Catholics.
Perhaps we should do away with the generalities and address only specific actions taken by specific people?
Such as, ‘Lefebvre was disobedient’ (not ‘SSPX are all full of pride’); 'Cardinal Law should have taken a stronger stand against certain Mass. politicians (not ‘American Catholics don’t care about the Holy Eucharist’), ‘It was wrong of Fr. XXX to have Aztec dancers during communion’ (yes, actually happens here, even in Chaput territory), (instead of N.O. are pagans bent on ruining the Church). (A comment I have often heard in other discussions).
Just a thought.
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I know many wonderful SSPXrs as well. My problem is that they are not in union with Rome. It’s as simple as that.

[quote=migurl]I know that the Official SSPX Church has its issues with listening to the Pope, but not all SSPX churches are like that. THey pray for the Pope’s intentions and hope that all things end up working out. I just think it’s a shame that everyone else is ganging up on them.

I ddn’t mean that the Pope is a joke, just that there are a lot of Lay people out there saying that the SSPX is heretical because of its traditional stance when the Pope never said anything like that.
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Migurl, I’m really sorry, but that is not what I get from my Traditionalist friends. I have one guy that is constantly telling me that the pope was wrong and VII was wrong and always badmouthing the N.O. Mass and everything that doesn’t follow what he likes. I finally think that it’s not about reverence or anything else…it’s all about people who just don’t like and want it their own way. I grew up with theTridentine Mass and it was just fin for me because there is English in every missal alongside the Latin.

But I never see any of these horror stories in my parish (though I don’t doubt that some exist because humans are weird) and our two priests are some of the holiest guys I’ve ever known and I wouldn’t trade their Masses for anything in all the world.

Sympathy for the SSPX? Nope…when ya badmouth my pope ya get nothin’ from me until ya get back where ya belong and stop messing up the Body of Christ.

Worse, when I hear the way many of those folks talk to me and non-Catholics (and those that know me on here know that I don’t play about the faith and I don’t take any guff from anyone about it) I just have to walk away, because they want to do things and say things that IMHO are as bad as some of the anti-Catholic rhetoric that we hear on here all the time. I know the faith, and I won’t hang out with them.

Ganging up on 'em? Not me, but I don’t hang with 'em.

:amen:

The following quote is from a file by Fr. Joe Horn, O.Praem., who is also webmaster of “100% Catholic Forum” at holyjoe.net/phpBB2_new/ :

“… Let’s be perfectly clear. I became a high school teacher because I do have compassion for those who are unaware of knowledge that they need. But I have no compassion for those who are culpably ignorant, or even worse, in a state of heresy, schism, or apostasy. What I have for that is a burning desire to correct it…” holyjoe.net/homilies//letters01.html

Having been an adherent for over 23 years to the SSPX, and having “reverted” - they are also my sentiments entirely!

By the way, my six best friends are still adherents (and, therefore schismatics and excommunicants) to the SSPX schism. We frequent one another’s homes at least once a month, and are in telephone contact at least weekly. We love our SSPX friends - all of them, and pray for their return to Holy Mother Church.

[quote=migurl]I know that the Official SSPX Church has its issues with listening to the Pope, but not all SSPX churches are like that. THey pray for the Pope’s intentions and hope that all things end up working out. I just think it’s a shame that everyone else is ganging up on them.

I ddn’t mean that the Pope is a joke, just that there are a lot of Lay people out there saying that the SSPX is heretical because of its traditional stance when the Pope never said anything like that.
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They’re definitely schismatic and possibly heretical…not all of them, but the ones that say that the Mass of Paul VI is invalid or an abomination. I know of one SSPX priest who believes the “abomination.” Why is that heretical? Trent and at least 2 popes have said that it is impossible for the Church to present for celebration a defective Mass. The Church is impeccable and the Mass she offers is as well. That’s a matter of faith. Now, that Mass may be abused, of course. AND the Pope’s statement is a joke??? That’s amazing from someone professing to be a Catholic.

quote: Amado de Dios

In their minds, a deal with “modernist” Rome would be the demise of catholic Tradition. In other words, they, and not Rome, are the Pillar of Truth.

The Church’s one foundation
Is Jesus Christ, our Lord

reen12

The most attractive heresies or schisms are always those that don’t fall far from the tree. I know some older people that wish that the Church was still like the “old way”-but they don’t jump ship. It is a legitimate concern, there is too much abuse going on with the liturgy and there are plenty of people that either want more liberalism in the Church or just don’t care and let it slide. We could use good, conservative people in the Church-but the radical SSPXers are letting the Church down by thinking they are “more Catholic than the Pope”.

I see an optimistic future for the Church, I recently went to a Christmas party at our Archdiocese for seminarians and those discerning a vocation-and we all want a more conservative future. No more of the abominations of the '60s and '70s-we want a faithful presentation of the Mass in conformity with the Novus Ordo as it was intended to be. Not a free for all for personal inventions and alterations.

I respect the folks that like the Tridentine Mass, I like it too. But the Pauline Mass is completely legitimate and is the standard Mass of the Latin Rite Catholic Church. If someone doesn’t think so, they aren’t Catholic in good standing with the Holy See.

[quote=JKirkLVNV]They’re definitely schismatic and possibly heretical…not all of them, but the ones that say that the Mass of Paul VI is invalid or an abomination. I know of one SSPX priest who believes the “abomination.” Why is that heretical? Trent and at least 2 popes have said that it is impossible for the Church to present for celebration a defective Mass. The Church is impeccable and the Mass she offers is as well. That’s a matter of faith. Now, that Mass may be abused, of course. AND the Pope’s statement is a joke?!?!?!? That’s amazing from someone professing to be a Catholic.
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I didn’t say that, I said that there are people out there that think that SSPX is in schism because of it’s traditional mass when it is because Levabre ordained two more bishops than he was supposed to.

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