Per-Vatican II question


#1

I understand that a lot of how things were done at Mass changed after Vatican II: facing the people instead of away from them, standing to receive the Eucharist in the hand instead of kneeling to receive the Eucharist on the tongue, using mostly the common language instead of all Latin. I don't want to talk about any of that here! :p I want to know about the music before Vatican II.

Were there processional and recessional hymns?

Were there hymns or instrumental music during the offeratory and/communion?

Did a cantor present the responsorial psalm like they do know?

Was there nothing but Gregorian chant during Mass?

Was all music sung in Latin, or was some (or all) sung in the common language?

It seems like there are a lot of old hymns, especially Mary ones, that all the over-60 crowd seem to know by heart. Or were these hymns introduced in the 60s and 70s after Vatican II?


#2

[quote="SHoJ, post:1, topic:333045"]
I understand that a lot of how things were done at Mass changed after Vatican II: facing the people instead of away from them, standing to receive the Eucharist in the hand instead of kneeling to receive the Eucharist on the tongue, using mostly the common language instead of all Latin. I don't want to talk about any of that here! :p I want to know about the music before Vatican II.

Were there processional and recessional hymns?

Were there hymns or instrumental music during the offeratory and/communion?

Did a cantor present the responsorial psalm like they do know?

Was there nothing but Gregorian chant during Mass?

Was all music sung in Latin, or was some (or all) sung in the common language?

It seems like there are a lot of old hymns, especially Mary ones, that all the over-60 crowd seem to know by heart. Or were these hymns introduced in the 60s and 70s after Vatican II?

[/quote]

Often, yes.

Yes, depends.

There was no responsorial Psalm. There was/still is something called the gradual, which is a different form of Psalm.

No.

A sung Mass, that is a High Mass or Solemn Mass, was and is totally sung in Latin, with the exception of the processional and recessional hymns, which there may or may not have been.

There is an absolute trove of very good hymnody written before Vatican II, there are also some horrible ones. There is an absolute trove of very awful hymnody written after Vatican II, there are also some good ones.


#3

I made my First Holy Communion just before the VII changes. It was the Traditional Mass (Missal of 1962), in Latin. I remember practicing and singing "Holy, Holy, Holy" with my FHC class - in English. But I can't remember when we sang it. :o Most likely, it was our processional song.

We did sing a lot of the Marian hymns for things like May Crowning and other processions. There were lots of singing opportunities besides during Mass. :)


#4

While hymns were sung at mass prior to Vatican II, they were a rather late introduction. I don't believe that hymns were permitted prior to the early 20th century - does anyone know? Prior to that, certain hymns were sung in the Divine Office and others during popular devotions / processions outside of mass. The antiphons proper to each were and are the most appropriate processional and recessional.


#5

[quote="SHoJ, post:1, topic:333045"]
I understand that a lot of how things were done at Mass changed after Vatican II: facing the people instead of away from them, standing to receive the Eucharist in the hand instead of kneeling to receive the Eucharist on the tongue, using mostly the common language instead of all Latin. I don't want to talk about any of that here! :p I want to know about the music before Vatican II.

Were there processional and recessional hymns?

Were there hymns or instrumental music during the offeratory and/communion?

Did a cantor present the responsorial psalm like they do know?

Was there nothing but Gregorian chant during Mass?

Was all music sung in Latin, or was some (or all) sung in the common language?

It seems like there are a lot of old hymns, especially Mary ones, that all the over-60 crowd seem to know by heart. Or were these hymns introduced in the 60s and 70s after Vatican II?

[/quote]

You should go to a Latin Holy Mass as before Vatican II (Tridentine Mass) and see what it is like now. The Tridentine Mass is ever beautiful with its' rubrics and wording; God is clearly evident. I highly suggest going to one!!


#6

[quote="Corki, post:3, topic:333045"]
We did sing a lot of the Marian hymns for things like May Crowning and other processions. There were lots of singing opportunities besides during Mass. :)

[/quote]

Can you give examples of those opportunities?


#7

But, then again, God is clearly evident at all authorized forms of the Mass.


#8

[quote="Neofight, post:7, topic:333045"]
But, then again, God is clearly evident at all authorized forms of the Mass.

[/quote]

I don't think I contradicted that...


#9

[quote="Neofight, post:7, topic:333045"]
But, then again, God is clearly evident at all authorized forms of the Mass.

[/quote]

I don't think that holyfamily1 said anything against any other forms of Mass.


#10

[quote="SHoJ, post:9, topic:333045"]
I don't think that holyfamily1 said anything against any other forms of Mass.

[/quote]

:shrug: :shrug: :shrug:


#11

[quote="holyfamily1, post:5, topic:333045"]
You should go to a Latin Holy Mass as before Vatican II (Tridentine Mass) and see what it is like now. The Tridentine Mass is ever beautiful with its' rubrics and wording; God is clearly evident. I highly suggest going to one!!

[/quote]

I might do that, just to see what it's like. Nobody says I have to keep going back, right?


#12

[quote="SHoJ, post:11, topic:333045"]
I might do that, just to see what it's like. Nobody says I have to keep going back, right?

[/quote]

You should! No one says you have to keep going back, and our Pope Emeritus wanted everyone to be familiar with the Latin Mass! WARNING: after you have attended one you might feel pulled to continue attending them!! :D :D

P.S. If you decide to go, tell us what you think and who said the Mass if you know (FSSP, ICKSP, Canons Regular of St. John Cantius, Diocesan, etc.) :thumbsup:


#13

[quote="SHoJ, post:1, topic:333045"]
I understand that a lot of how things were done at Mass changed after Vatican II: facing the people instead of away from them, standing to receive the Eucharist in the hand instead of kneeling to receive the Eucharist on the tongue, using mostly the common language instead of all Latin. I don't want to talk about any of that here! :p I want to know about the music before Vatican II.

Were there processional and recessional hymns? There wasn't a processional or recessional as we know it unless for a special occasion. The priest simply came out of the sacristy with the altar boys. After mass, there were prayers at the foot of the altar so I don't recall a hymn at end of Mass.

Were there hymns or instrumental music during the offeratory and/communion? No

Did a cantor present the responsorial psalm like they do know? There was no cantor since there was no responsorial psalm.

Was there nothing but Gregorian chant during Mass? No.

Was all music sung in Latin, or was some (or all) sung in the common language? A few hymns were sung during Mass and they were mostly in the common language. There were some Latin hymns sometimes.

It seems like there are a lot of old hymns, especially Mary ones, that all the over-60 crowd seem to know by heart. Or were these hymns introduced in the 60s and 70s after Vatican II?

[/quote]

*These Marian hymns already existed before the 60s and 70s. *


#14

There was no cantor since there was no responsorial psalm.

Not necessarily because in High/Sung/Missa Cantata Masses where a choir/schola was/is used, a cantor was/is sometimes used to help lead the schola.


#15

I was in Catholic school. We had processions for various feasts and always sang. There was also singing at Benediction.


#16

Hymns were officially allowed at low mass from 1947 onwards, and the ordinary was sung to a congregational setting like the Missa De Angelis.


#17

We had a parish choir back in the 50s and 60s and there was never a cantor.


#18

[quote="Sunbreak, post:17, topic:333045"]
We had a parish choir back in the 50s and 60s and there was never a cantor.

[/quote]

I have seen a cantor part in chant, etc. and have seen a cantor in a schola. :shrug:


#19

[quote="holyfamily1, post:18, topic:333045"]
I have seen a cantor part in chant, etc. and have seen a cantor in a schola. :shrug:

[/quote]

Indeed cantors have been part of the Mass for a long time. If you look at any Gregorian chant score, for example an introit, there's a * placed somewhat shortly after the beginning of the introit. The cantor, if there was one, was meant to intone the introit and sing it up the star, at which point the rest of the schola would join in. For an introit with one or two psalm verses, it would work like this:

1) the cantor intones it up to the star;
2) the schola would chant the rest of the antiphon;
3) a solist, or the cantor, would chant the psalm verse;
4) the entire choir (if there was one) would repeat the entire antiphon (for example in a monastic setting, the cantor and the schola would chant the first repetition of the antiphon, and all the monks in the choir would repeat the antiphon after the psalm verse).

The gradual, usually a complex and melismatic antiphon, would be different: the cantor would intone it, then the entire choir would chant the first part; the after the double bar, the schola would chant the psalm verse (which was very complex, and often in a different key from the first half of the verse).

So in short, yes you are quite correct, cantors were used in the EF Mass and are also used in the OF Mass sung in Gregorian chant as well as the vernacular.


#20

DISCLAIMER: The views and opinions expressed in these forums do not necessarily reflect those of Catholic Answers. For official apologetics resources please visit www.catholic.com.