Perfect + Imperfect = ??


#1

I opened a thread about this issue before and I would like to discuss it again. How can God be God (perfect) and man (imperfect) at the same time. Can something be completely black and completely white at the same time? Can someone be blind and see at the same time? Also do Catholics believe God is in everything or can become anything?


#2

Man in himself or herself is “imperfect” due to the original sin which is the fault of Adam and Eve, who WERE perfect but chose to sin and lost paradise.

A man or woman who was born WITHOUT original sin would be a perfect man or woman, since it is"original sin" which makes us imperfect.

That Man was Jesus. That woman was Mary.

Further, Jesus gave us a glorious gift with His sacrifice, death and resurrection. . . He gave us Baptism. Baptism washes away original sin and again makes us perfect. It is thus entirely possible that we could --and should–continue in perfection. But–as is shown by Adam and Eve, who were perfect but even existing in perfection still freely chose to sin–even when we have been made perfect in Christ we can still choose to sin.

To answer your original flawed premise, what we have with Jesus Christ is Perfect God and Perfect Man. Not Perfect God, Imperfect Man.

So we don’t have the false dichotomy you worry about.


#3

We believe that man was made perfect (Adam and Eve) by God in his image, but because of the fall of original sin, we were instilled in that nature to be imperfect. Thus, it is possible that God begot Jesus perfectly, through the means of someone “without blemish” (the Virgin Mary). His will instilled the true nature of man in the incarnation of Jesus Christ, in through which our salvation comes from.

I believe an understand of why and how God made man is in order here before we can begin to discuss how the two natures of God and man in Jesus Christ can co-exist.


#4

[quote=Tantum ergo]Man in himself or herself is “imperfect” due to the original sin which is the fault of Adam and Eve, who WERE perfect but chose to sin and lost paradise.

A man or woman who was born WITHOUT original sin would be a perfect man or woman, since it is"original sin" which makes us imperfect.

That Man was Jesus. That woman was Mary.

Further, Jesus gave us a glorious gift with His sacrifice, death and resurrection. . . He gave us Baptism. Baptism washes away original sin and again makes us perfect. It is thus entirely possible that we could --and should–continue in perfection. But–as is shown by Adam and Eve, who were perfect but even existing in perfection still freely chose to sin–even when we have been made perfect in Christ we can still choose to sin.

To answer your original flawed premise, what we have with Jesus Christ is Perfect God and Perfect Man. Not Perfect God, Imperfect Man.

So we don’t have the false dichotomy you worry about.
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Did Jesus eat and sleep? If he did then he depended on something else and God doesn’t depend on anything. Sleep is a creation of God, if it overtook Jesus it must have been stronger than him, thus he is not perfect.


#5

[quote=Emad]Did Jesus eat and sleep? If he did then he depended on something else and God doesn’t depend on anything. Sleep is a creation of God, if it overtook Jesus it must have been stronger than him, thus he is not perfect.
[/quote]

Jesus was in a human body, limited by the physical needs of human body. But that doesn’t mean he didn’t have a 100% divine nature either.


#6

[quote=LRThunder]Jesus was in a human body, limited by the physical needs of human body. But that doesn’t mean he didn’t have a 100% divine nature either.
[/quote]

How can God be limited to a human body? You can’t be 100% divine and 100% human. That is like being 100% perfect and 100% imperfect.


#7

Did Jesus eat and sleep? If he did then he depended on something else and God doesn’t depend on anything. Sleep is a creation of God, if it overtook Jesus it must have been stronger than him, thus he is not perfect.

We are not saying that God and humans are EQUAL, so again your premise is flawed.

Perfect man does not equal perfect God, since a creation cannot equal its creator. . .

EXCEPT if God Himself became incarnate Man. The HYPOSTATIC UNION. . .True God and True Man. Two natures–divine and human. Perfect divine and perfect human.

While Mary was a perfect woman, she was not also perfect God. Therefore unlike Jesus she did not ‘equal’ God, yet she was still a perfect human being.

Therefore, we can have a “perfect” human who is NOT God, and ONE perfect human who happens to be God AS WELL AS being human.

As a perfect human being, Jesus ate and slept like a human, in his perfect human body. Sleep is not “stronger” than a human being, sleep is, like wakefulness, a necessary PART of human life. If you don’t sleep, your body is going to shut down. . .permanently. That is the way that human beings were made.

I don’t argue with God. He chose to make us, He chose to send us His Son, He chose to redeem us. Deo gratias.


#8

[quote=Emad]How can God be limited to a human body? You can’t be 100% divine and 100% human. That is like being 100% perfect and 100% imperfect.
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God’s ways are not our ways. I don’t understand how he could be fully human and fully God at the same time, but he was. Otherwise his death on the cross was no different than a common execution and our hope is meaningless.


#9

Once again, a human being is NOT “100% imperfect”.

Sigh.


#10

[quote=LRThunder]God’s ways are not our ways. I don’t understand how he could be fully human and fully God at the same time, but he was. Otherwise his death on the cross was no different than a common execution and our hope is meaningless.
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Doesn’t it make much more sense that God is not human at all, perfect and only perfect? He doesn’t die at all. Death is a creation of God and it also doesn’t make sense for the creation to overpower the Creator. If you don’t understand something, why would you base your eternal destiny on it? Especially if there is something that is much easier to understand and makes much more sense?


#11

[quote=Tantum ergo]Once again, a human being is NOT “100% imperfect”.

Sigh.
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ok let’s assume a human is 1% imperfect, how can God be completely perfect and 1% imperfect?


#12

[quote=Tantum ergo]We are not saying that God and humans are EQUAL, so again your premise is flawed.

Perfect man does not equal perfect God, since a creation cannot equal its creator. . .

EXCEPT if God Himself became incarnate Man. The HYPOSTATIC UNION. . .True God and True Man. Two natures–divine and human. Perfect divine and perfect human.

While Mary was a perfect woman, she was not also perfect God. Therefore unlike Jesus she did not ‘equal’ God, yet she was still a perfect human being.

Therefore, we can have a “perfect” human who is NOT God, and ONE perfect human who happens to be God AS WELL AS being human.

As a perfect human being, Jesus ate and slept like a human, in his perfect human body.** Sleep is not “stronger” than a human being,** sleep is, like wakefulness, a necessary PART of human life. **If you don’t sleep, your body is going to shut down. . .permanently. ** That is the way that human beings were made.

I don’t argue with God. He chose to make us, He chose to send us His Son, He chose to redeem us. Deo gratias.
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You are restating what I am saying, that God is becoming a human and doing things that don’t befit Him, such as eating, sleeping, relieving himself etc. How can God do that and not do that at the same time? Also to what I highlighted about sleep shows that if you don’t give in to sleep it will take you over, thus stronger. You can’t fight it and beat it forever. It will overtake you thus stronger than you. So how can creation overtake the Creator?


#13

Let’s NOT. I have told you over and over again that a human being in and of himself or herself is NOT imperfect at all AS A HUMAN BEING ==IF that human being is untouched by original sin.

Jesus and Mary were conceived without original sin. As human beings without original sin, they were and are as “perfect” human beings as Adam and Eve. Just as Adam and Eve, though perfect, COULD “choose” to sin, Jesus and Mary COULD HAVE chosen to sin. . .but did not. They remained perfect in every way. That is why Jesus is referred to as “the new Adam” and Mary as “the new Eve”. That is why Jesus’s sacrifice is considered to have completely blotted out the sin of Adam, and Mary’s obedience to God to have completely blotted out Eve’s disobedience.

So. . .once again, God is perfect. Jesus Christ, Son of the Virgin Mary, a man like us in all things but sin. . .is perfect.

Perfect - perfect.

No problems.


#14

Let’s see. God created everything, right? He “made the rules”, right?

The way that God made human beings–perfect human beings, like Adam and Eve–was that they ate, they slept, they lived in a physical universe with things like the law of gravity, a place that had morning and evening, a place where there was food and drink.

So. . .when Jesus, son of God, became a fully human being, God does not “change the rules”. If Jesus is a fully human being (and perfect to boot), then He HAS to BE human. That means eating, drinking, and sleeping. These things are not “stronger” than people–they are FORCES. They are not SENTIENT BEINGS, to be stronger or weaker than other sentient beings.

It is not by eating, sleeping, or not flying off the face of the earth that people “become less than perfect”. . .it is by failing to do the will of God.


#15

[quote=Tantum ergo]Let’s NOT. I have told you over and over again that a human being in and of himself or herself is NOT imperfect at all AS A HUMAN BEING ==IF that human being is untouched by original sin.

Jesus and Mary were conceived without original sin. As human beings without original sin, they were and are as “perfect” human beings as Adam and Eve. Just as Adam and Eve, though perfect, COULD “choose” to sin, Jesus and Mary COULD HAVE chosen to sin. . .but did not. They remained perfect in every way. That is why Jesus is referred to as “the new Adam” and Mary as “the new Eve”. That is why Jesus’s sacrifice is considered to have completely blotted out the sin of Adam, and Mary’s obedience to God to have completely blotted out Eve’s disobedience.

So. . .once again, God is perfect. Jesus Christ, Son of the Virgin Mary, a man like us in all things but sin. . .is perfect.

Perfect - perfect.

No problems.
[/quote]

I am not talking about perfection with regards to sins. I am talking about imperfection with regards to abilities. Surely Jesus wasn’t all powerful, thus he wasn’t perfect in power. He didn’t know everything, thus he wasn’t perfect in knowledge. Jesus wasn’t perfect with regards to not depending on anything, thus imperfect since he depended on food. God is perfect and doesn’t depend on anything. Do you believe God depends on things? If so, that thing is stronger then God, because without it God won’t exist.


#16

[quote=Tantum ergo]Let’s see. God created everything, right? He “made the rules”, right?

The way that God made human beings–perfect human beings, like Adam and Eve–was that they ate, they slept, they lived in a physical universe with things like the law of gravity, a place that had morning and evening, a place where there was food and drink.

So. . .when Jesus, son of God, became a fully human being, God does not “change the rules”. If Jesus is a fully human being (and perfect to boot), then He HAS to BE human. That means eating, drinking, and sleeping. These things are not “stronger” than people–they are FORCES. They are not SENTIENT BEINGS, to be stronger or weaker than other sentient beings.

It is not by eating, sleeping, or not flying off the face of the earth that people “become less than perfect”. . .it is by failing to do the will of God.
[/quote]

ok forget the word perfect. Do you believe God sleeps? Do you believe He depends on things? Do you believe He forgets? Do you believe He doesn’t know everything? If not, how can God sleep and not sleep at the same time? How can He eat and not eat at the same time? How can He know everything and not know everything at the same time?


#17

Two words. . .“Hypostatic union”.

It’s a mystery.

Also Jesus actually WAS omnipotent and omniscient and everything else. He knew EXACTLY what He was going to do and say. He COULD HAVE called down legions of angels to protect Him at any time. It was because what He was doing was the perfect, omniscient will of the FATHER that He PERMITTED Himself to suffer and die.


#18

God is a pure spirit. He is also, in the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity, a perfect union of God and Man. The Father does not “sleep”. The Son, while on earth, DID. His resurrected glorious Body and Soul, do not sleep. Sleep is neither “perfection” nor “imperfection”.


#19

Ok, that’s all you needed to say. It’s a mystery, thus there is no explanation. Why base your eternal destiny on a mystery? Is it better to base it on something logical and understandable or a mystery? Would God really make such basic teachings about Himself a mystery?


#20

Yes, He would.

I would actually EXPECT not to fully understand God. How can I, a mere human being, be capable of the OMNISCIENCE of GOD? I can only understand on a human level, not a God level, since I am not a god.

This does not make me “imperfect”, it makes me human. A creator understands ALL about his creations; but creations cannot understand ALL about their creator.


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