perpetual virginity of Mary..T or F?


But hopefully you are not agreeing with poco that the “woman” in Genesis 3:15 is Eve. Such that it reads:

“And I will put enmity Between [Satan] and [Eve], And between [Satan’s] seed and [Eve’s] Seed”

Such a reading would diminish our fallen nature, and therefore dilute the redeeming quality of The Seed who will crush the head of the serpent, etc.

This is a Messianic prophecy; Mary’s name is not spoken (nor is Jesus’), so the “woman” here is the main point; the seed of a woman means the seed shall not have an earthly father. In short; the Messiah will come from the seed of a woman, not a man as everyone else will. The emphasis is on the female’s role or on the “female role”… which is again connected back to Eve’s disobedience (and Adam’s too, by showing the Messiah will not have a human father).

Exactly - this is a Messianic prophecy. Therefore, Eve is not the woman at enmity with Satan – but Mary and her Seed absolutely are!

As with many prophecies, it isn’t an either/or. As in either Mary or Eve. Again, it is all about Jesus, and what makes Him special, as we can surely agree. The thrust of the prophecy here is about Messiah; He will not have an earthly human father, but will have a human mother, and He will crush Satan. Not only is it about that, but it is about God allowing the feminine to be used for good, as it was used for evil, and making sure we know that by one man, Adam, sin entered in and affected all of mankind, and even creation (hence Messiah cannot have an earthly male father). Prophecies tend to be multi-layered; this one is about Jesus, Mary, Eve, Adam, feminine and masculine roles, repercussion, and reproduction, sin and Satan. lol It’s jam-packed.

Alright. Like I said, I didn’t every single post, so it’s possible I missed the appearance you speak of.

Well, partially agreed could mean different things. Did he agree that he is at least *somewhat *dismissive/lacking?

Where is the friendship ? Was Eve in league then with satan’s seed? Was Abel Satan’s seed ? Remember oral tradition of the Word, the Word of God ? Who “carried” it , Satan and his seed like Cain? Where was the “pillar of truth” in the world to follow the fall. Whom did God ask to carry it ?


Done having fun with me?

Ta ta!

Well dna but hopefully no blood (usually not a good thing in pregnancy).

Moses had to take his sandals off when he approached the burning bush (Ex 3:5).
Isaiah had his lips cleaned with a burning coal because he saw the Lord of Hosts (Is. 6

Yes, but the Lord made a way, just like he could have for Joseph to approach Mary after the birth. As far as Isaiah, did he need the coal for the rest of his life, or was “seeing” the Lord and the coal temporary, a one time event , as Mary’s divine pregnancy was a one time event ?

You asked, What does it mean to be full of grace? And it is a great question. The question in response is: Do you really want to know?

There is a fine line between seeking and finding, and not being still and having itchy ears. Sometimes wisdom is cried out from the rooftops and sometimes we see thru a glass darkly. We can know all things yet some things are vain contentions.

Well, even though babies form their “own” blood, the two blood systems do pass oxygen, glucose, CO2, etc. between them.

From WebMD


The sperm and egg unite in one of your fallopian tubes to form a one-celled entity called a zygote. If more than one egg is released and fertilized, you may have multiple zygotes.
The zygote has 46 chromosomes — 23 from you and 23 from the father.

Let’s stop here! Where did these chromosomes come from? Maybe I am overly exited over this miracle, but I just can’t get my mind around how magnificent this is!

I don’t care of PeterJ wants to have a little fun with me over this subject and how I am partially scandalized with the casual tone in your posts over this miracle. But I find this truly fascinating. I’d rather be mocked because I am excited by the conception and incarnation of our Lord than by being skeptic about it, **all **of it. I just can’t get around how special it is for Blessed Virgin Mary to have been impregnated by the Holy Spirit, I mean WOW :angel1:

These chromosomes will help determine your baby’s sex, traits such as eye and hair color, and, to some extent, personality and intelligence.
Soon after fertilization, the zygote travels down the fallopian tube toward the uterus. At the same time, it will begin dividing rapidly to form a cluster of cells resembling a tiny raspberry. The inner group of cells will become the embryo. The outer group of cells will become the membranes that nourish and protect it.

However, during birth, the placenta detaches from the womb and some bleeding occurs. Only at this time can blood from the BABY get into the mother’s blood stream. If the baby has a different blood type than the mother, she will make antibodies to the baby’s blood. So there is usually no problem during the first pregnancy. NEXT time she gets pregnant, if the baby is a different blood type than the mother, the antibodies that she made during the first birth can cross the umbilical cord into the baby (because they are small enough) and hurt the baby. But there are shots that can be given during the first birth that can “suck up” all the baby’s blood cells so that the mother does not make antibodies to them. The only time something could happen to the first baby is if the placenta detaches partially and some bleeding is going on, but not enough to cause miscarriage. This is rare.

At this point, I doubt I can bring anything else for your consideration without you having a counter argument.

I shall go my merry way. Amazed by Christ.

Hail Mary,
Full of Grace,
The Lord is with thee.
Blessed art thou among women,
and blessed is the fruit
of thy womb, Jesus.
Holy Mary,
Mother of God,
pray for us sinners now,
and at the hour of death. Amen.

Understand. Have seen that before. Thank you for saying 1000 years and not two thousand. I thought there was earlier debate about just what is original sin, and was she purified at birth or just before the Annunciation. …I still hold it is partly devoid of even earlier Jewish understanding of purification, sanctification doctrine. That is she was full of grace in Jewsih terms without any further theology, especially formulated centuries later, when we were further separated from Jewish understanding.

I think this puts it into perspective. It really needs to be read carefully.

Taken from the Haydocks Catholic Bible Commentary: emphasis is mine
Ver. 15. She shall crush. Ipsa, the woman: so divers of the fathers read this place, conformably to the Latin: others read it ipsum, viz. the seed. The sense is the same: for it is by her seed, Jesus Christ, that the woman crushes the serpent’s head. (Challoner) — The Hebrew text, as Bellarmine observes, is ambiguous: He mentions one copy which had ipsa instead of ipsum; and so it is even printed in the Hebrew interlineary edition, 1572, by Plantin, under the inspection of Boderianus. Whether the Jewish editions ought to have more weight with Christians, or whether all the other manuscripts conspire against this reading, let others inquire. The fathers who have cited the old Italic version, taken from the Septuagint agree with the Vulgate, which is followed by almost all the Latins; and hence we may argue with probability, that the Septuagint and the Hebrew formerly acknowledged ipsa, which now moves the indignation of Protestants so much, as if we intended by it to give any divine honour to the blessed Virgin Mary. We believe, however, with St. Epiphanius, that “it is no less criminal to vilify the holy Virgin, than to glorify her above measure.” We know that all the power of the mother of God is derived from the merits of her Son. We are no otherwise concerned about the retaining of ipsa, she, in this place, than in as much as we have yet no certain reason to suspect its being genuine. As some words have been corrected in the Vulgate since the Council of Trent by Pope Sixtus V. and others, by Pope Clement VIII. so, if, upon stricter search, it be found that it, and not she, is the true reading, we shall not hesitate to admit the correction: but we must wait in the mean time respectfully, till our superiors determine. (Haydock) Kemnitzius certainly advanced a step too far, when he said that all the ancient fathers read ipsum. Victor, Avitus, St. Augustine, St. Gregory, &c. mentioned in the Douay Bible, will convict him of falsehood. Christ crushed the serpent’s head by his death, suffering himself to be wounded in the heel. ***His blessed mother crushed him likewise, by her co-operation in the mystery of the Incarnation; and by rejecting, with horror, the very first suggestions of the enemy, to commit even the smallest sin. ***(St. Bernard, ser. 2, on Missus est.) “We crush,” says St. Gregory, Mor. 1. 38, “the serpent’s head, when we extirpate from our heart the beginnings of temptation, and then he lays snares for our heel, because he opposes the end of a good action with greater craft and power.” The serpent may hiss and threaten; he cannot hurt, if we resist him. (Haydock)

Just curious, why would you hold to Jewish theology regarding Christ when they rejected him as the Messiah in the first place?

Is this a joke? You claimed that pocohombre “appeared to be dismissive or lacking the importance of that fact” and that “he partially agreed with me in his reply” … then when I ask you about the latter assertion I get nothing but sarcasm and flippancy? :shrug: :mad:


It is pretentious of you, after admitting that you have not read all of poco’s posts, to expect me to give you a synopsis of his posts. They are there for you to read. I read them, you should do the same…

It is very clear, something that has been consecrated for a holy purpose can never be used for a common purpose. (and NOTHING is more holy than bearing and giving birth to God)

Well, I can set your mind at ease on that score: I’m not saying that you need to give me a synopsis of his posts. I’m sorry if you got that impression. And yes, I freely admit that I haven’t read all of his posts on this thread.

I’ve been reading your posts for some time (in general, I mean, not just on this particular thread) and had it in the back of my mind to get to know you a little better, because I liked many of the things you’ve said; but I think this encounter has saved me the trouble of doing so … After your last two posts, I now feel like I know you as well as I would want to.

To pocohombre: Could you clarify what you’ve been saying here? Are you dismissive/lacking the importance of Mary carrying Jesus in her womb?

I’ve been surprised by a few longtime CAF members the past couple of weeks. Posters who usually seem considerate and pretty mellow have made some posts that feel uncharacteristic of them, in my opinion. Isaiah, I’m not sure if I missed something, but I’m puzzled by your exchanges with Peter here.

I did get that impression.

That’s up to you.

Since we are on this subject, if my memory serves me right - most of our exchanges have come in some sort of admonishment from you - or in the form of asking me to clarify my position in regards to my responses to other non-catholic posters. If your intentions are what you have expressed here, I would have been able to experience a different approach from you.

Further, you express this interest of getting to know each other better and yet, not once have I talked to you outside threads. I am, then, forced to interpret that your approach is shallow and not really demonstrating this interest you have expressed here. I have received and sent several personal messages with posters with whom I agree and with whom I disagree on various subjects. With others, I have also emailed. This type of effort, in my opinion, shows a more significant interest in developing a friendly relationship.

Sadly, the feeling is mutual.

Abide, I have been rather annoyed by Peter’s approach to some of my posts for some time now. I reacted to them. My tone might not have been the best, but I am sure I was not disrespectful - nor did I intend to. I drew a line.

I think post #830 explains better where I am coming from in regards to my exchange with poco.

This is very basic stuff. Eve (and then Adam) succumbed to sin and brought death into the world. Read Genesis and then we can discuss.

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