Peter or James?


#1

Hi all,

On a secular website I was having a discussion with someone about the history the Church and it turned towards the foundation of the Church on Peter. The person I was discussing with denies that Christ built His Church on Peter but insists that James was Christ’s successor. He made some references to the Dead Sea Scrolls (at least I assume those are the scrolls he’s referring to). Here is his post copied below. I had never heard of any of his claims. If anyone here could shed some light on the topic or provide some reliable sources, I would be very interested:)

Christ didn’t build his church on Peter. That’s a Paul lie. James was Jesus’ successor and led the community after Jesus’ death. Paul said that Peter was in charge and Peter’s response was to not believe anything unless it came from James, for whom Heaven and Earth were created.

Between Constantine, Paul, and the church leaders who came after Nicea, most of what was true about Jesus is long gone.

Until you read the scrolls and the Nag Hammadi Library…

Blessings,

Q


#2

The first thing that I would ask is what makes the Dead Sea Scrolls any more special than the bible or the other writings of the Church Fathers? Get some specifics from him.


#3

[quote=epr1993]The first thing that I would ask is what makes the Dead Sea Scrolls any more special than the bible or the other writings of the Church Fathers? Get some specifics from him.
[/quote]

He just gave me a list of sources:

The Hiram Key: Don’t let the cover cause you to pass this one up. The authors are Freemasons and they wanted to look as far back into Freemasonry as they could. While they were doing that they dug up a ton of history that they found interesting. The beginning of the book is slow, as it has to do mostly with Freemasonry, but it picks up fairly quickly.

The Book of Hiram: I don’t know if you’ll read this one. It’s the second part, really, of the first one; even though they wrote a couple of other books between these two. The first book was openly attacked by many Catholic publications although none of the theories were debated.

James the Brother of Jesus: Really long book. I don’t think Robert Eisenman writes anything but long books. What you’ll really find interesting in Eisenman’s books is the great attention to detail. He explains why some early translations are incorrect and pretty much dares those writers to prove him wrong. Seems the biggest problem people had when making early translations was that they didn’t know the people, their history, or their politics and that made some translations highly inaccurate.

Also by Eisenman: The Dead Sea Scrolls and the First Christians, The Dead Sea Scrolls Uncovered.

The Secret Books of the Egyptian Gnostics: I have the one by Jean Doresse and it contains The Gospel According to Thomas.

I’m really out of my element here and don’t have time to read all this stuff. Looking at the brief summaries of “The Hiram Key” and “The Book of Hiram” it seems that they are wild with speculation à la Da Vinci Code.

I also checked out the reviews on amazon.com for The Hiram Key and got a mix of people thinking it was the greatest thing ever to people criticizing the authors’ tendencies to jump to seemingly illogical conclusions based on very few facts mingled with speculation.

I haven’t searched yet, but I’m going to try and see if anyone on the forums has already commented on this literature to see what I can find. I’m sure that there is some truth to some of the things in the book, but they seem wildly heretical.

Anyway, if anyone can comment on this stuff, it might be interesting.

-Q


#4

Our faith, as is the faith of all Christians, is built on a belief that the Bible is the inspired Word of God. The Bible certainly states that the Church was built on Peter, not James. It also states that Jesus will be with the Church till the end of the age, to protect it form heresy.

So anyone can pick some other source, be it the Dead Sea Scrolls, or some person, and claim that as a source for a different opinion contrary to Christian (not even Catholic, but CHRISTIAN) beliefs. At that point, it is up to them to show prove that the Bible is not inspired, and that their source is. While that is impossible to prove IMHO, you may just need to end the conversation saying “I disagree but I respect your right to your own beliefs. God Bless you”.


#5

dead sea scrolls contain new testament works ?

i thought the dead sea scrolls dated from 80 or so years
before Jesus’ birth…

:slight_smile:


#6

These are gnostic writings and Gnosticism is heresy. This was decided in the very early church.

They are interesting because they “debunk” the truth that so many people are trying so hard to discredit. The Catholic Church has claimed that gnosticism is heresy and that the faithfull, especially those not strong in their faith, should stay away from because these writings teach no truth. They only serve to confuse. They teach some “secret knowledge” (gnosis) that one has to have in order to be saved.

Ever see the movie “Stigmata?” It’s entire premise was taken from things like the Gospel of Thomas and the Nag Hammedi Library. It made for an interesting movie but when movie makers make movies like this, I wonder how many people are thinking this stuff is true becasue it came from such an “ancient source.”

All it does is mislead.


#7

[quote=DianJo]These are gnostic writings and Gnosticism is heresy. This was decided in the very early church.

They are interesting because they “debunk” the truth that so many people are trying so hard to discredit. The Catholic Church has claimed that gnosticism is heresy and that the faithfull, especially those not strong in their faith, should stay away from because these writings teach no truth. They only serve to confuse. They teach some “secret knowledge” (gnosis) that one has to have in order to be saved.

Ever see the movie “Stigmata?” It’s entire premise was taken from things like the Gospel of Thomas and the Nag Hammedi Library. It made for an interesting movie but when movie makers make movies like this, I wonder how many people are thinking this stuff is true becasue it came from such an “ancient source.”

All it does is mislead.
[/quote]

Thanks for the info…I’ve got a lot to learn about Church history, I think. Last night, trying to dig up some info about the Freemasons, I wound up reading about Pope Pius X, SSPX, the Novus Ordo Missae, and a bunch of other stuff. Now I’ll have to start looking up some Gnosticism stuff to satisfy my curiosity;)

Either way, I thank God for the Church and the leadership She gives us!!

-Q


#8

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