Peter was never a bishop of Rome or at Rome, CC does not teach it anymore


#1

Originally Posted by highrigger1:

The Catholic church **no longer teaches **that Peter was a bishop of Rome.

When did the CC stop teaching Peter was a bishop of Rome? Documents please...

None of them were liars but Ambrose was mistaken. He believed the mytholodgy invented in the third century.

highrigger1:

He (Irenaeus) is repeating legends and myths just as you are. Modern scholars know better. The reason I say the same is because you keep asserting the same thing.

Wait a minute? I thought it was INVENTED in the 3rd century as a MYTH & LEGEND? Now you add Irenaeus who said the following in 180AD? Which one is it? Third or before? But MODERN scholars know better? Definitely not Math!

St Irenaeus, "Against Heresies", 3,1,1, 180 A.D., J208 "...in their own dialect, while Peter and Paul were evangelizing at Rome, and laying the foundations of the Church." St Irenaeus, "

Against Heresies", chapter III, "...the very ancient, and universally known Church founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul; as also [by pointing out] the faith preached to men, which comes down to our time by means of the successions of the bishops."

highrigger1:

I have provided some of the top historians but you want to dismiss them as if nobody but you knows about Irenaeus.

TOP historians? :whacky:


#2

[quote="Nicea325, post:1, topic:281907"]
Originally Posted by highrigger1:
When did the CC stop teaching Peter was a bishop of Rome? Documents please...

[/quote]

Responding to the title of this thread, the CC has now and always taught that the St. Peter was the first Bishop of Rome. Hopfully this will help:

Christ Builds His Church on Peter
General Audience — November 25, 1992

We have seen that according to the Council's teaching, which is a summary of the Church's traditional doctrine, there exists an "order of bishops which is the successor to the college of the apostles in their role as teachers and pastors." Indeed this episcopal college "gives this apostolic body continued existence, [and] is also the subject of supreme and full power over the universal Church, provided we understand this body together with its head the Roman Pontiff and never without this head. This power can be exercised only with the consent of the Roman Pontiff" (LG 22).

This text of Vatican II tells us about the Petrine ministry exercised in the Church by the Bishop of Rome as the head of the episcopal college. We will devote the set of catecheses that we are beginning today to this important and significant point of Catholic doctrine. We intend to give a clear, reasoned exposition of this teaching, in which the feeling of personal inadequacy is joined to that of the responsibility which stems from Jesus' mandate to Peter, and in particular, from the divine teacher's response to this profession of faith in the region of Caesarea Philippi (cf. Mt 16:13-19).

Let us again examine the text and context of the important dialogue handed down to us by the evangelist Matthew. After asking: "Who do people say that the Son of Man is?" (Mt 16:13), Jesus asked his apostles a more direct question: "But who do you say that I am?" (Mt 16:15). It is already significant that Simon answered in the name of the Twelve: "You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God" (Mt 16:13-16). One might think that Simon made himself the spokesman for the Twelve by force of his own more vigorous and impulsive personality. Possibly this factor came into play to some extent. However, Jesus attributed his answer to a special revelation from the heavenly Father: "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah. For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my heavenly Father" (Mt 16:17). Above and beyond factors of temperament, character, ethnic background or social status ("flesh and blood"), Simon was the beneficiary of an illumination and inspiration from on high that Jesus identified as "revelation." In virtue of this revelation Simon made a profession of faith in the name of the Twelve.

Here is Jesus' declaration, which in the very solemnity of its form manifests the binding and constitutive meaning that the Teacher intends to give it: "And so I say to you, you are Peter" (Mt 16:18). The declaration is indeed solemn: "I say to you." It involves Jesus' sovereign authority. It is a word of revelation, of effective revelation in that it accomplishes what it says.

A new name was given to Simon, the sign of a new mission. That this name was given is confirmed by Mark (3:16) and Luke (6:14) in their accounts of the choice of the Twelve. John also speaks of it, indicating that Jesus used the Aramaic word Kephas , which in Greek is translated as Petros (Jn 1:42).

We should remember that the Aramaic word Kephas which Jesus used, as well as the Greek word Petros which translates it, means "rock." In the Sermon on the Mount Jesus gave the example of the "wise man who built his house on rock" (Mt 7:24). Addressing Simon, Jesus declared to him that because of his faith, a gift from God, he had the solidity of rock upon which an unshakable edifice could be built. Jesus then stated his own decision to build on this rock just such a building--his Church.

vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/audiences/alpha/data/aud19921125en.html


#3

[quote="Art321, post:2, topic:281907"]
Responding to the title of this thread, the CC has now and always taught that the St. Peter was the first Bishop of Rome. Hopfully this will help:

vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/audiences/alpha/data/aud19921125en.html

[/quote]

Yeah unfortunately our brother highrigger1 believes otherwise? I have no idea where he/she is getting such information from? :shrug:


#4

[quote="Nicea325, post:3, topic:281907"]
Yeah unfortunately our brother highrigger1 believes otherwise? I have no idea where he/she is getting such information from? :shrug:

[/quote]

I'm with you but still I await to hear what he/she has to say on this. Hopfully we'll get a response soon.


#5

Ignatius 30 -107 AD

Now it occurs to me to mention, that the report is true which I heard of thee whilst thou wast at Rome with the blessed father Linus, whom the deservedly-blessed Clement, a hearer of Peter and Paul, has now succeeded.

And what is the presbytery but a sacred assembly, the counsellors and assessors of the bishop? And what are the deacons but imitators of the angelic powers, fulfilling a pure and blameless ministry unto him,...... Anencletus and Clement to Peter?


#6

As a Catholic, I don't understand Peter being the first bishop. Anyone who denies Peter being in Rome makes no sense though, agree with that. Peter was a traveling apostle who started churches not just in Rome but in Antioch as well. Could it be that he was not the first pope but the selector of the first pope instead? Otherwise, how would we explain Antioch? Can their church which is Orthodox also claim Peter as their first bishop? They would have to be able to using the same logic. Then Primacy becomes a can of worms.....


#7

[quote="rben20, post:6, topic:281907"]
As a Catholic, I don't understand Peter being the first bishop. Anyone who denies Peter being in Rome makes no sense though, agree with that. Peter was a traveling apostle who started churches not just in Rome but in Antioch as well. Could it be that he was not the first pope but the selector of the first pope instead? Otherwise, how would we explain Antioch? Can their church which is Orthodox also claim Peter as their first bishop? They would have to be able to using the same logic. Then Primacy becomes a can of worms.....

[/quote]

The foundation from and Apostle was not the only criteria of determining the primacy of a See. It also had to do with the population and relative importance of the city as well. Rome was a larger & more important see than Antioch, on top of the fact that Peter was martyred and buried in Rome(along with Paul being executed & buired outside of Rome's walls).


#8

[quote="rben20, post:6, topic:281907"]
As a Catholic, I don't understand Peter being the first bishop. Anyone who denies Peter being in Rome makes no sense though, agree with that. Peter was a traveling apostle who started churches not just in Rome but in Antioch as well. Could it be that he was not the first pope but the selector of the first pope instead? Otherwise, how would we explain Antioch? Can their church which is Orthodox also claim Peter as their first bishop? They would have to be able to using the same logic. Then Primacy becomes a can of worms.....

[/quote]

This is why the apostolic fathers typically did not ascribe a particular city (or the title of 'bishop') to the Apostles. To them, because of the bishop's unique and non-transferable attachment to the Christian community in one location, it would have been inappropriate to call the apostles bishops, because doing so would have detracted from their special mission, which was universal, and not limited to one community.


#9

wish I could make heads or tails out of this thread!


#10

[quote="KateKimmer, post:9, topic:281907"]
wish I could make heads or tails out of this thread!

[/quote]

You would have to go to this thread to follow the OP...it started somewhere in this thread at about this point...Please refute this Sola Scriptura...

forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=660248&page=27


#11

[quote="Art321, post:4, topic:281907"]
I'm with you but still I await to hear what he/she has to say on this. Hopfully we'll get a response soon.

[/quote]

Curious he is not trying to back it up. Over 100 posts in three days, he certainly has the time.:cool:


#12

[quote="Art321, post:2, topic:281907"]
Responding to the title of this thread, the CC has now and always taught that the St. Peter was the first Bishop of Rome. Hopfully this will help:

vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/audiences/alpha/data/aud19921125en.html

[/quote]

I've read and re-read and re-read this post. It only confirms St Peter's authority that is in the Bishops/Popes of Rome. At no time does it conclude St Peter was actually a Bishop of Rome.

St Peter certainly consecrated the first Bishops of Rome and they bore his authority. But that he was himself a bishop - it would have been impossible since a bishop would have had to stay in a certain location to tend his flock. The Apostles move around and consecrated bishops where they established Churches. Thus, St Peter also founded the Church of Antioch and through his disciple, St Mark, the Church of Alexandria and through his brother St Andrew, the Churches of Constantinople and of Kyiv. He also consecrated bishops for many smaller cities, towns and villages.

Alex


#13

[quote="Ecoclimber, post:5, topic:281907"]
Ignatius 30 -107 AD

Now it occurs to me to mention, that the report is true which I heard of thee whilst thou wast at Rome with the blessed father Linus, whom the deservedly-blessed Clement, a hearer of Peter and Paul, has now succeeded.

And what is the presbytery but a sacred assembly, the counsellors and assessors of the bishop? And what are the deacons but imitators of the angelic powers, fulfilling a pure and blameless ministry unto him,...... Anencletus and Clement to Peter?

[/quote]

Again, no indication Peter was a bishop of Rome, only that he originated the Church of Rome and we know he consecrated St Clement who was a disciple of both Sts Peter and Paul.

Sorry to burst your bubble . . .

Alex


#14

[quote="Cavaradossi, post:8, topic:281907"]
This is why the apostolic fathers typically did not ascribe a particular city (or the title of 'bishop') to the Apostles. To them, because of the bishop's unique and non-transferable attachment to the Christian community in one location, it would have been inappropriate to call the apostles bishops, because doing so would have detracted from their special mission, which was universal, and not limited to one community.

[/quote]

Perfect explanation and entirely consistent with the Church's understanding of the roles of "Bishop" and "Apostle."

Alex


#15

[quote="Alexander_Roman, post:13, topic:281907"]
Again, no indication Peter was a bishop of Rome, only that he originated the Church of Rome and we know he consecrated St Clement who was a disciple of both Sts Peter and Paul.

Sorry to burst your bubble . . .

Alex

[/quote]

I think your clutching at straws Alex.

Ahh bless....


#16

I do not think that he is clutching at straws. The problem is with how you define the bishop of a place. If the individual is the bishop of a diocese than Peter was not the bishop of Rome. However, bishops existed well before the first diocese (Ostia 3rd century) and obviously the Church of Rome existed before that too, and so people can really fiddle around with the definitions.


#17

[quote="Ecoclimber, post:5, topic:281907"]
Ignatius 30 -107 AD

Now it occurs to me to mention, that the report is true which I heard of thee whilst thou wast at Rome with the blessed father Linus, whom the deservedly-blessed Clement, a hearer of Peter and Paul, has now succeeded.

And what is the presbytery but a sacred assembly, the counsellors and assessors of the bishop? And what are the deacons but imitators of the angelic powers, fulfilling a pure and blameless ministry unto him,...... Anencletus and Clement to Peter?

[/quote]

[quote="Alexander_Roman, post:13, topic:281907"]
Again, no indication Peter was a bishop of Rome, only that he originated the Church of Rome and we know he consecrated St Clement who was a disciple of both Sts Peter and Paul.

Sorry to burst your bubble . . .

Alex

[/quote]

well, let's burst the bubble just a bit more by pointing out that the two quotes were taken from spurious works and not actually written by Ignatius...


#18

[quote="Radical, post:17, topic:281907"]
well, let's burst the bubble just a bit more by pointing out that the two quotes were taken from spurious works and not actually written by Ignatius...

[/quote]

Sources please...


#19

[quote="Alexander_Roman, post:13, topic:281907"]
Again, no indication Peter was a bishop of Rome, only that he originated the Church of Rome and we know he consecrated St Clement who was a disciple of both Sts Peter and Paul.

Sorry to burst your bubble . . .

Alex

[/quote]

And a lack of mentioning does not negate it either. I do not recall reading where many post-Apostolic fathers discuss the complexity of the Trinity...does it mean they never did?


#20

[quote="Nicea325, post:19, topic:281907"]
And a lack of mentioning does not negate it either. I do not recall reading where many post-Apostolic fathers discuss the complexity of the Trinity...does it mean they never did?

[/quote]

Very true. Good post.

Our friend has built a typical Protestant straw man argument.

He shall be in my prayers.


DISCLAIMER: The views and opinions expressed in these forums do not necessarily reflect those of Catholic Answers. For official apologetics resources please visit www.catholic.com.