Pharissess similiar to our leaders?


#1

When I am reading the Bible and come across Jesus talking to the Pharissess and Sagisses, I just can’t help compare them to our Pope, Biships and Priests. Our Catholic religion is always stressing saying the rosary. But didn’t Jesus rebuke us repeating the same prayers like the pagan religions?

I don’t know why I still keep on feeling that the rosary is wrong.

Also, how do I respond to Christians who believe that our prayer to marry is worship to her? I tell them it is not. But they keep on saying what do you mean? “Hail Mary?” That word there is worship.

What does it mean for us to say “mother of God” I know that it doesn’t mean that Mary created God. But she was an earthly mother?


#2

[quote=emom]When I am reading the Bible and come across Jesus talking to the Pharissess and Sagisses, I just can’t help compare them to our Pope, Biships and Priests. Our Catholic religion is always stressing saying the rosary. But didn’t Jesus rebuke us repeating the same prayers like the pagan religions?
[/quote]

Are you saying they are hypocrites because they promote the Rosary which some anti-Catholics see as “vain repetition”? Read this article from Catholic Answers catholic.com/library/Rosary.asp that says in part:

When Catholics recite the twelve prayers that form a decade of the rosary, they meditate on the mystery associated with that decade. If they merely recite the prayers, whether vocally or silently, they’re missing the essence of the rosary. It isn’t just a recitation of prayers, but a meditation on the grace of God. Critics, not knowing about the meditation part, imagine the rosary must be boring, uselessly repetitious, meaningless, and their criticism carries weight if you reduce the rosary to a formula. Christ forbade meaningless repetition (Matt. 6:7), but the Bible itself prescribes some prayers that involve repetition. Look at Psalms 136, which is a litany (a prayer with a recurring refrain) meant to be sung in the Jewish Temple. In the psalm the refrain is “His mercy endures forever.” Sometimes in Psalms 136 the refrain starts before a sentence is finished, meaning it is more repetitious than the rosary, though this prayer was written directly under the inspiration of God.

I don’t know why I still keep on feeling that the rosary is wrong.

Probably, because like many Catholics, you have been influenced by Protestant ways of thinking, which we are bombarded with constantly by Protestant radio, TV, and well-meaning friends and relatives. Shed those pre-conceptions and think like a Catholic.

Also, how do I respond to Christians who believe that our prayer to marry is worship to her? I tell them it is not. But they keep on saying what do you mean?

If they do not listen to you, or accept official Catholic like the Catechism that says otherwise, there’s not much you can do.

“Hail Mary?” That word there is worship.

You need to get them a dictionary. “Hail” simply means “greeting” or “hello.”

What does it mean for us to say “mother of God” I know that it doesn’t mean that Mary created God. But she was an earthly mother?

Again, from the same article:

Some Protestants object to the title “Mother of God,” but suffice it to say that the title doesn’t mean Mary is older than God; it means the person who was born of her was a divine person, not a human person. (Jesus is one person, the divine, but has two natures, the divine and the human; it is incorrect to say he is a human person.) The denial that Mary had God in her womb is a heresy known as Nestorianism (which claims that Jesus was two persons, one divine and one human), which has been condemned since the early 400s and which the Reformers and Protestant Bible scholars have always rejected.


#3

newadvent.org/cathen/11789b.htm
newadvent.org/cathen/13323a.htm

I have a great deal of difficulty understanding how you can relate the Pharisees and Sadducees to the Pope, our Bishops and Priests. Remember who we are…we are Christians, followers of Christ. The Pharisees and Saducees rejected Christ and the New Covenant. This is clearly not the case with our leaders in the Catholic Church.


#4

Sometimes I do feel like mass can be a bit cult - like when everyone is chanting the Nicene Creed…


#5

If you are “a bit cult” by reciting the beliefs of the Church founded by Christ…then sign me up!!! Ooops…I already am…

What a wonderful thing we do each Sunday (or more often) in the Mass by openly providing witness and espousing our beliefs in God, Christ and His Church. I have never been in a cult, so I don’t know how that feels (although you seem to be eluding to the fact that we act “cult” in the Catholic Church). However, it feels wonderful to me to carry on our Christian tradition through the Mass.


#6

[quote=Libero]Sometimes I do feel like mass can be a bit cult - like when everyone is chanting the Nicene Creed…
[/quote]

Chanting is a form of prayer, a very effective one. If by chanting you think that it is just saying words in monotone, then you need to do some thinking on what chanting really is. :thumbsup:


#7

I have noticed that with older english the word Prayer meant to ask or to entreat. “Please, let my son go I pray thee.” or something like that. It doesn’t mean that the person is acting like the captor is a God or anything. It simply is another way of saying “asking” or something like that. Just my observations though. Might or might not help.


#8

[quote=emom]When I am reading the Bible and come across Jesus talking to the Pharissess and Sagisses, I just can’t help compare them to our Pope, Biships and Priests. Our Catholic religion is always stressing saying the rosary. But didn’t Jesus rebuke us repeating the same prayers like the pagan religions?

I don’t know why I still keep on feeling that the rosary is wrong.

Also, how do I respond to Christians who believe that our prayer to marry is worship to her? I tell them it is not. But they keep on saying what do you mean? “Hail Mary?” That word there is worship.

What does it mean for us to say “mother of God” I know that it doesn’t mean that Mary created God. But she was an earthly mother?
[/quote]

Part of the reasons you “keep on feeling…” is that you are studying ( or have studied in the past) with those who don’t understand it. You cannot explain it and so your unease continues with the repeated assults on Catholic teachings.

Although the studies you have talked about in the past, the people seem nice, it is quite clear from your remarks here today that they do not consider Catholics Christians.

Don’t believe me? Ask them. Ask them if they think Catholics in general are Christians? What about those who pray the Rosary, are they Christians? What about asking saints to pray for you, can a Christian ask someone who has died to pray for them? If they do, does that mean they are not Christian? I don’t want to know if they think a Catholic can be a Christian, in isolated instances, but in general, can a Catholic who faithfully follows the teachings of the Catholic Church be a Christian? Ask. Don’t let them skate around this issue.

Truly, you need to stop the bible studies unless it is with other Catholics until you are stronger in your understanding of Catholic teachings.

Maybe you have already stopped, but if not, there is absolutely no program that is good enough for you or your children, if you are led away from Christ’s Church through it.

God Bless,
Maria


#9

(Edited unneccessary & uncharitable response)

Jesus rebuked the Pharisees for PREVENTING others from getting to heaven.

Are you equating our priests and bishops (and “Il Papa”) encouraging us into a closer relationship with God to the Pharisees making people “twice as fit for hell, as they are themselves”?

I, too, had problems with some of the teachings of the Catholic Church. But, instead of listening to someone from outside the faith to interpret the reasoning behind the teachings, I go straight to the source. And, without exception, I have found out the problem was with me, not with the Church’s teachings.

The rosary is a perfect example. Only the Eucharist (Mass and Adoration) have brought me into a closer relationship than the rosary has.

I suggest you take a closer look at what the Church teaches AND WHY!!!

Notworthy


#10

Dear Not Worthy,
I don’t think it’s helpful if you get ‘offended’ when someone submits their honest doubts. A lot of people have thought the Rosary is an example of ‘vain repetitions’, it really is a valid question. Getting mad at the OP doesn’t really help.

I would submit that the Rosary, if done properly, is a tool for meditation. But as Jesus warns, we should not fall into using it as a vain repetition, droning on mindlessly, thinking there is some magic to our many words.

Also, on the point of comparing our hierarchy to the Sanhedren, I think we have to understand that it does appear that way to outsiders, and try and understand that. Getting angry and offended probably won’t do much to dispell any misunderstandings.


#11

“Hail Mary!” is directly from the bible! If the Angel Gabriel can use this to greet the mother of our Lord, I want to follow!!!


#12

[quote=spiritblows]Dear Not Worthy,
I don’t think it’s helpful if you get ‘offended’ when someone submits their honest doubts. A lot of people have thought the Rosary is an example of ‘vain repetitions’, it really is a valid question. Getting mad at the OP doesn’t really help.

Also, on the point of comparing our hierarchy to the Sanhedren, I think we have to understand that it does appear that way to outsiders, and try and understand that. Getting angry and offended probably won’t do much to dispell any misunderstandings.
[/quote]

But emom is not an outsider looking in. Emom is Catholic.

And the point of my anger is, It’s one thing to claim that a religion’s teaching is misguided or in error.

It’s another thing to say that a religion’s teachers are preventing people from entering heaven.

Jesus loved the sinner (though he hated the sin). But Jesus rarely showed any compassion for the Pharisees. He called them hypocrites, snakes, vipers, devils-tools, etc.

Notworthy


#13

Thanks! You have all help me. My problem is that I have gone to the Church many times for explaination or understanding and spirtual growth. I have not found anyone really willing to spend the time with me.

My best friends are the “evanglical christians” who have put a lot of doubt in my mind. They have gotten me to pray and go back to the Church (because I was so offended by what they said).

But all the Bible studies that our Church offer does not have classes for the children to be in at the same time. I work full time and my husband too. It doesn’t seem to benefit the children to be at another baby sitter for another 2 hours. The protestant churches have classes for the children which does make me feel better that they are learning about Jesus. Remember, I am a returning Catholic and I have not introduced the Church, prayers and devotions until recently. It has been a hard struggle for me because I feel that I am not doing it the right way or explaining. And my husband doesn’t support me in any of this.

I really need all your support - I have a lot of stupid questions that I will ask on this forum. I am an unguided soul that really needs help that has so many faults.

I am relying on you guys for support. Please pray for me.


#14

[quote=NotWorthy]But emom is not an outsider looking in. Emom is Catholic.

And the point of my anger is, It’s one thing to claim that a religion’s teaching is misguided or in error.

It’s another thing to say that a religion’s teachers are preventing people from entering heaven.

Jesus loved the sinner (though he hated the sin). But Jesus rarely showed any compassion for the Pharisees. He called them hypocrites, snakes, vipers, devils-tools, etc.

Notworthy
[/quote]

I didn’t mean to offend anyone. I have to compile questions fast because I do have a 4 and 6 year old that I get distracted and my thoughts aren’t really clear. Alot of my questions will probably be in a form of a question that my protestant friends ask me. With I cannot explain, I have been raised in the faith, but no one explained why. They just explained to do it because we have to out of our love to Jesus. When I went to our Priest about similiar question about this, he just told me to have faith and go to Mass.


#15

Emom,
If you feel guilty when saying the rosary of repititous prayer and misdirecting your prayers, look to

A) The prophet Isaiah had a vision of the Lord in heaven. In chapter 6, Isaiah saw the angels praising God, saying these same words: “Holy, holy, holy is the Lord of hosts; the whole earth is full of his glory” (Is. 6:3). The Apostle John had a similar experience. In chapter 4 of Revelations, he witnessed four living creatures day and night never ceasing to sing, “Holy, holy, holy is the Lord God Almighty” (Rev. 4:8).
Repetitous prayer, if said from the heart, is pleasing to God.

B) Have you tried a Scriptural Rosary? As I mentioned in a previous flame, er, post, I had trouble with the Rosary (due to misguidance from my “Christian” friends. Maybe they’re being Pharisee-ic:D). Saying the Scriptural Rosary helped me to realize that the entire Rosary is a meditation on Jesus, just like its supposed to be.

Might I suggest “The New Rosary in Scripture” by Edward Sri?

Notworthy


#16

Here are some thoughts on the Creed.

***The Creed ***represents “the Story that Shaped Our Lives”. To some people the Creed is just a checklist: Yeah, we still believe this, and we still believe this. In truth, the Creed we recite each Sunday is meant to shape our identity and our daily lives. The Creed affirms that one God - the Holy Trinity - is God over the entire human family and is at the center of every human heart’s deepest longing. The Creed not only defines what we believe; it defines who we are. It summarizes the story that gives meaning to our lives: the Father sent His Son to die for our sins and poured His Spirit into our hearts that we may be reconciled to Him in the Church. These basic truths should mold our hearts and guide our lives. United in Jesus Christ through His Holy Spirit, we sinners have become sons and daughters of the Father. This story of salvation certainly is worth retelling and celebrating on a regular basis. At this point in the Mass, we stand up before the entire congregation, and before God, to make this public profession of faith and to recommit ourselves to live out all that the Creed represents in our daily lives.

Notworthy


#17

[quote=emom]Thanks! You have all help me. My problem is that I have gone to the Church many times for explaination or understanding and spirtual growth. I have not found anyone really willing to spend the time with me.

My best friends are the “evanglical christians” who have put a lot of doubt in my mind. They have gotten me to pray and go back to the Church (because I was so offended by what they said).

But all the Bible studies that our Church offer does not have classes for the children to be in at the same time. I work full time and my husband too. It doesn’t seem to benefit the children to be at another baby sitter for another 2 hours. The protestant churches have classes for the children which does make me feel better that they are learning about Jesus. Remember, I am a returning Catholic and I have not introduced the Church, prayers and devotions until recently. It has been a hard struggle for me because I feel that I am not doing it the right way or explaining. And my husband doesn’t support me in any of this.

I really need all your support - I have a lot of stupid questions that I will ask on this forum. I am an unguided soul that really needs help that has so many faults.

I am relying on you guys for support. Please pray for me.
[/quote]

I will completely put you in my prayers. How hard to find yourself craving to learn more about God but only being able to do so in an Evangelical setting.

Okay. Not a great scenario, but at least it’s evangelical and not Baptist:D

Step one. You need to just spend the money and buy a Catholic Apologetic books. I know it is Christmas time. But You need to be able to defend your Catholic faith, even if it is just sound bites at this point. The easiest might be a topic related subject. This would be my recommendation. Even if you can’t find a way to rebut things in person, you can at least find the answers quickly once you get home.
Beginning Apologetics 9 book series on sale for $34.95. It comes with a “cheat sheet” that you could easily take with you to bible studies and when things come up, you could find scripture quickly to rebut different things.
Step two: Get a Catechism from the Church or buy one. Since you do not know alot about your faith, you are vulnerable to things like, Catholics worship Mary. How do you rebut this? Look it up and say “Well clearly right here it says that we are not supposed to worship Mary.”

Step three: Understand that no matter what is brought up, these women do this out of love. They understand the Catholic Church even less than you do and they are only concerned for your soul.

But know this There is not one doctrine of the Catholic Church that contradicts Scripture. In fact, I have yet to find one belief that is not implicit in Scripture. Example: Mary led a sinless life - Full of Grace in Scripture. Those three simple words are much more than “highly favored daughter”.

I am actually a revert from the Evangelical arena. My most favorite thing today is to “find it in the bible”. You can stregthen your faith in Christ and you understanding in Catholic teachings where you are. It is not easy. But I did it. Just remember this: The bible is true right? The Bible tells us that the Church will withstand the gates of hell in Matthew 16:19. Either it has God kept His promise and it has withstood, or why bother even being Christian? I had to hang onto that one for a while every time I started to doubt that the Catholic Church was Christian. If the Catholic Church is not Christian, then God did not keep His promise. It truly helped me. I hope it can help you too.

God Bless,
Maria


#18

[quote=emom]When I am reading the Bible and come across Jesus talking to the Pharissess and Sagisses, I just can’t help compare them to our Pope, Biships and Priests. Our Catholic religion is always stressing saying the rosary. But didn’t Jesus rebuke us repeating the same prayers like the pagan religions?

I don’t know why I still keep on feeling that the rosary is wrong.

Also, how do I respond to Christians who believe that our prayer to marry is worship to her? I tell them it is not. But they keep on saying what do you mean? “Hail Mary?” That word there is worship.

What does it mean for us to say “mother of God” I know that it doesn’t mean that Mary created God. But she was an earthly mother?
[/quote]

Meditate on the mysteries during the Rosary do not focus on the words so much. Imagine as if you were right there at that moment in human history, and you will see the Rosary is all about JESUS, not Mary. The reason other Christians claim we worship Mary and other saints is because other Christians refer to worship as prayers, singing, etc. Catholics do not see this as worship … worship is adoration. Mary is the mother of Jesus. Jesus is God the Son according to true Christians. Then rationally Mary is the mother of God. God the Father sent the Son, God the Father is all, God the Father is masculine and feminine, there is no limit of what God is or can be. God the Father and God the Son are one in the same … and the holy spirit is the breath of God sent to dwell in us.


#19

[quote=emom]When I am reading the Bible and come across Jesus talking to the Pharissess and Sagisses, I just can’t help compare them to our Pope, Biships and Priests. Our Catholic religion is always stressing saying the rosary. But didn’t Jesus rebuke us repeating the same prayers like the pagan religions?

I don’t know why I still keep on feeling that the rosary is wrong.

Also, how do I respond to Christians who believe that our prayer to marry is worship to her? I tell them it is not. But they keep on saying what do you mean? “Hail Mary?” That word there is worship.

What does it mean for us to say “mother of God” I know that it doesn’t mean that Mary created God. But she was an earthly mother?
[/quote]

Meditate on the mysteries during the Rosary do not focus on the words so much. Imagine as if you were right there at that moment in human history, and you will see the Rosary is all about JESUS, not Mary. The reason other Christians claim we worship Mary and other saints is because other Christians refer to worship as prayers, singing, kneeling, etc. Catholics do not see this as worship … worship is adoration. Mary is the mother of Jesus. Jesus is God the Son according to true Christians. Then rationally Mary is the mother of God. God the Father sent the Son, God the Father is all, God the Father is masculine and feminine, there is no limit of what God is or can be. God the Father and God the Son are one in the same … and the holy spirit is the breath of God sent to dwell in us.


#20

[quote=emom]Thanks! You have all help me. My problem is that I have gone to the Church many times for explaination or understanding and spirtual growth. I have not found anyone really willing to spend the time with me.

My best friends are the “evanglical christians” who have put a lot of doubt in my mind. They have gotten me to pray and go back to the Church (because I was so offended by what they said).

But all the Bible studies that our Church offer does not have classes for the children to be in at the same time. I work full time and my husband too. It doesn’t seem to benefit the children to be at another baby sitter for another 2 hours. The protestant churches have classes for the children which does make me feel better that they are learning about Jesus. Remember, I am a returning Catholic and I have not introduced the Church, prayers and devotions until recently. It has been a hard struggle for me because I feel that I am not doing it the right way or explaining. And my husband doesn’t support me in any of this.

I really need all your support - I have a lot of stupid questions that I will ask on this forum. I am an unguided soul that really needs help that has so many faults.

I am relying on you guys for support. Please pray for me.
[/quote]

Emom,

Hang in there!! It’s not easy for any of us to defend The Faith when there are so many hostile opinions about the Catholic Church out there. Re-read what Fidelis wrote and spend as much time as possible on the catholic answers web site…


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