Pius IX and Italy


#1

As most Catholic historians know, the Papal States ended in 1870-1871 with the unification of Italy, and the creation of the Italian, secular state.

The Pope of the time, Pius IX was not a happy camper about losing the papal states. From what I recall he excommunicated several members of the Italian republic and forbade Catholics to participate in elections.

Now of course the Pope is just fine with the idea of the country of Italy, and the participation in elections by Catholics ( as long as they do not vote for intrinsic moral evils!!!)

My question is, were Pius IX's outrage and condmnations of the new order not an ex cathedra statement? Could Catholics of the time have just dismissed his denounciations as his "own opinion?"

If it was binding, and the creation of the Italian state was a sin, partaking in elections against Popes will was a sin, then why is it not sinful now, more than 100 years after Pio nonos death?


#2

“Ex-Cathedra” can only be applied to “Faith and Morals” interpretations of the Catholics.

Politics definitevily do NOT apply.

Peace!


#3

Rome was illicitly and immorally seized from the Holy See by Italian national troops. Pius IX became a prisoner of the Vatican and forbade Catholics from partaking in the Kingdom of Italy politically because the Holy See did not recognize the legitimacy of the Italian gov’t. This situation ended when Pius XI signed a Concordat with Benito Mussolini in 1929, regularizing relations between the Holy See and Italy.

Popes cannot bind other popes. Pius XI had the same authority to end the boycott as did Pius IX to begin it.

Ex Cathedra statements only apply to teachings on Faith and Morals and thus doesn’t apply here.

In the end, the Holy See (so far) has benefited from not controlling the old Papal States, but with a decline in respect for religious freedom and Catholicism in Europe those days might be numbered.

God Bless.


#4

dancing with the devil.


#5

[quote="Fairwinds, post:4, topic:333183"]
dancing with the devil.

[/quote]

Mussolini wasn't so bad in 1929 as he would be ten years later. Pius XI wasn't a fortune teller.


#6

[quote="Fairwinds, post:4, topic:333183"]
dancing with the devil.

[/quote]

Is the devil, Benito Mussolini?

He was the head of the Italian government at the time, it was the hand that Pius XI was dealt and he had to play it :rolleyes: I doubt that the pope danced though.

Peace!


#7

its an expression. rolling your eyes over a common expression?

anyway, by then, Benito was head of a police state, a fascist dictator already on the way to his meat hook.


#8

and what is the ruling dictatorship since then in Italy?
communism, secular atheism, materialism, the black hand; evil.


#9

[quote="brumano, post:8, topic:333183"]
and what is the ruling dictatorship since then in Italy?
communism, secular atheism, materialism, the black hand; evil.

[/quote]

some people look back with fondness to the days of fascist dictatorships, most of us don't. there's no talking fascists out of their obsessive love with fascism, in my experience.

ProTip: italy has been a republic since '46, a year after mussolini's date with the meathook.


#10

I’m not sure how charitable the whole “meathook” thing is. Remember, Christ died for Mussolini as much as He died for you or me. And we all are sinners. Let’s pray Mussolini repented of his many crimes before his encounter with the meathook and his soul is resting in peace.

*REQUIEM aeternam dona ei, Domine, et lux perpetua luceat ei. Requiescat in pace. Amen. *


#11

[quote="brumano, post:8, topic:333183"]
and what is the ruling dictatorship since then in Italy?
communism, secular atheism, materialism, the black hand; evil.

[/quote]

The dictatorship of relativism.


#12

[quote="PietroPaolo, post:10, topic:333183"]
I'm not sure how charitable the whole "meathook" thing is. Remember, Christ died for Mussolini as much as He died for you or me. And we all are sinners. Let's pray Mussolini repented of his many crimes before his encounter with the meathook and his soul is resting in peace.

*REQUIEM aetern...en. *

[/quote]

I'm reciting a historical fact. after he was executed, Benito was hung on a meathook. had he lived, the Allies would have hung him with the rest of the war criminals.

I'll take your word that the latin thing was cool. I automatically tune it out.


#13

You know, before he fell in with Hitler, Mussolini was not that bad of a fellow. He did many public works projects, and helped the poor of Italy. Sure he had his human rights abuses in the '20s, but not anywhere near Stalin or Hitler. He was just Hitlers fool in WW2 and I think most people at the time saw that…

But if Pius 9 was not correct ( or at least issued a correctible proclomation) would it then not have been a sin for an Italian Catholic to participate in Italian democracy?

As an American,I can see why an Italian in 1870s would want that. I can see why he would want a government that got its powers from the people, and was accountable to the people if they did not uphold the integrity of the office. I can see why he would want freedom of speech and assembly, and a strong system of checks and balances.

Then there is the Pope telling Italy that “NO! NO you may NOT live in a unified republic, you MUST have me as your Pope and your king!”

So would it be a sin for an Italian of the time to disobey him? For the record I think it is good now that Popes, instead of having the Papal States, run a “kingdom not of this world!”


#14

[quote="Fairwinds, post:12, topic:333183"]
I'm reciting a historical fact. after he was executed, Benito was hung on a meathook. had he lived, the Allies would have hung him with the rest of the war criminals.

I'll take your word that the latin thing was cool. I automatically tune it out.

[/quote]

Sure, it's a historical fact, but one you seem to be taking a bit too lightly. A child of God is brutally murdered, perhaps some respect is in order.

The Latin is a traditional Catholic prayer for the dead.

Eternal rest grant unto him, O Lord, and let perpetual light shine upon him. Rest in Peace. Amen.


#15

[quote="HabemusFrancis, post:13, topic:333183"]
You know, before he fell in with Hitler, Mussolini was not that bad of a fellow. He did many public works projects, and helped the poor of Italy. Sure he had his human rights abuses in the '20s, but not anywhere near Stalin or Hitler. He was just Hitlers fool in WW2 and I think most people at the time saw that....

But if Pius 9 was not correct ( or at least issued a correctible proclomation) would it then not have been a sin for an Italian Catholic to participate in Italian democracy?

As an American,I can see why an Italian in 1870s would want that. I can see why he would want a government that got its powers from the people, and was accountable to the people if they did not uphold the integrity of the office. I can see why he would want freedom of speech and assembly, and a strong system of checks and balances.

Then there is the Pope telling Italy that "NO! NO you may NOT live in a unified republic, you MUST have me as your Pope and your king!"

So would it be a sin for an Italian of the time to disobey him? For the record I think it is good now that Popes, instead of having the Papal States, run a "kingdom not of this world!"

[/quote]

1) Italy was not a Republic until after World War II (and by then Italian Catholics were able to participate for 17 years). By the end of the reign of Pius IX, Italy was a Kingdom ruled by King Vittorio Emmanuele II. Pius was not condemning republican rule, he was objecting to the seizure of the city of Rome (which was legally the property of the Holy See for over a millennium) by the King of Italy. Italy in 1870 (and even Italy today) was not America in 1776.

2) It certainly seems to have been a great boon to the Church to have been rid of the Papal States, but remember they were necessary in their time and place and whether or not we think the Pope ought to be running an independent State (which he still does) it was still immoral for the King and Garibaldi to wage a war of conquest against the city of Rome.


#16

[quote="PietroPaolo, post:14, topic:333183"]
...A child of God is brutally murdered, perhaps some respect is in order.
.....

[/quote]

Benito didn't murder just one child of God, he murdered thousands.


#17

[quote="Fairwinds, post:16, topic:333183"]
Benito didn't murder just one child of God, he murdered thousands.

[/quote]

And still he was made in the image and likeness of GOD. We are all sinners, that doesn't mean we should mock each other's violent (and unjust) deaths.


#18

the myriad of ways Benito murdered his political opponents saddens me, but, such is the usual course with fascists. the only way to stop them is to destroy them.


#19

Will you not pray for his soul?


#20

no.

the Church should never get involved with psychopaths like that.


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