Please clarify, I heard this on EWTN


#1

I had the Catholic station on in my car yesterday, and I show with a man with an English accent was on. (sorry, I don’t know his name, I have caught parts of his show before, but I don’t tune in regularly) And he was speaking about the Blessed Virgin and told of how the angels in heaven bowed down and worshipped her. Those were his exact words.

And, I was troubled, because, well, one of the things that there are always threads about is how Mary is NOT divine and NO ONE worships her because worship is reserved for God alone, and then, whammo, on the radio, where any Tom, Dick or Harry can tune in…a Catholic, on a Catholic program, on an all Catholic station says the angels themselves worshipped Mary (I am pretty sure he said they bowed down and worshipped her as their divine queen)

Did anyone catch that show? And is what he said kopacetic?

cheddar


#2

[quote=cheddarsox]I had the Catholic station on in my car yesterday, and I show with a man with an English accent was on. (sorry, I don’t know his name, I have caught parts of his show before, but I don’t tune in regularly) And he was speaking about the Blessed Virgin and told of how the angels in heaven bowed down and worshipped her. Those were his exact words.

And, I was troubled, because, well, one of the things that there are always threads about is how Mary is NOT divine and NO ONE worships her because worship is reserved for God alone, and then, whammo, on the radio, where any Tom, Dick or Harry can tune in…a Catholic, on a Catholic program, on an all Catholic station says the angels themselves worshipped Mary (I am pretty sure he said they bowed down and worshipped her as their divine queen)

Did anyone catch that show? And is what he said kopacetic?

cheddar
[/quote]

Hi there Cheddar…will be most interested to read what Posts are submitted in your thread here…I have trouble with angels worshipping Our Lady too. Bowing as homage to their Queen (Our Lady, Queen of Angels) sits right with me, but worship is the equivalent of adoration which belongs to God only.

Thank you for posting Cheddar…Barb:)


#3

[quote=cheddarsox]I had the Catholic station on in my car yesterday, and I show with a man with an English accent was on. (sorry, I don’t know his name, I have caught parts of his show before, but I don’t tune in regularly) And he was speaking about the Blessed Virgin and told of how the angels in heaven bowed down and worshipped her. Those were his exact words./QUOTE]As the lad was English, perhaps he was using a more British meaning for the word “worship.” If any of our British brethren read this, please give us your two cents. Here’s how Merriam-Webster defines worship…

Etymology: Middle English *worshipe *worthiness, respect, reverence paid to a divine being, from Old English *weorthscipe *worthiness, respect, from *weorth *worthy, worth + *-scipe *-ship
1 chiefly British : a person of importance – used as a title for various officials (as magistrates and some mayors)
2 : reverence offered a divine being or supernatural power; also : an act of expressing such reverence
3 : a form of religious practice with its creed and ritual
4 : extravagant respect or admiration for or devotion to an object of esteem <worship of the dollar>
[/quote]


#4

I really wish Catholics wouldn’t say stuff like this! I have defended the Church’s teachings on Mary many times, but I sure won’t and can’t defend this kind of loose, inflammatory language.

It is true that one of the older meanings of “worship” is simply to venerate or give respect. Using that older meaning it is right to say that we worship Mary, but the older meaning has become obsolete.


#5

It has always been my understanding…for so long now that I cannot give the source of my knowledge…that the Angels are envious of us men. That the Angels are in OUR service, and that in the whole scheme of things we are stationed above them.

That being said…they possible should worship Mary. I have heard that they are envious of our free will and our Likeness to God…and Mary Choose to bring the son of God into the world feely…exercising faith that they wish they could exercise.


#6

If this is Worship…

“The most infallible and indubitable sign by which we may distinguish a heretic, a man of bad doctrine, a reprobate, from one of the predestinate, is that the heretic and the reprobate have nothing but contempt and indifference for Our Lady, endeavoring by their words and examples to diminish the worship and love of her, openly or hiddenly, and sometimes by misrepresentation. Alas! God the Father has not told Mary to dwell in them, for they are Esaus. …” (St. Louis De Monfort, True Devotion to Mary)

…is this Worship??

Luke 14:7-14 (KJV)
7 And he put forth a parable to those which were bidden, when he marked how they chose out the chief rooms; saying unto them, 8 When thou art bidden of any man to a wedding, sit not down in the highest room; lest a more honourable man than thou be bidden of him; 9 And he that bade thee and him come and say to thee, Give this man place; and thou begin with shame to take the lowest room. 10 But when thou art bidden, go and sit down in the lowest room; that when he that bade thee cometh, he may say unto thee, Friend, go up higher: then shalt thou have worship in the presence of them that sit at meat with thee. 11 For whosoever exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted. 12 Then said he also to him that bade him, When thou makest a dinner or a supper, call not thy friends, nor thy brethren, neither thy kinsmen, nor thy rich neighbours; lest they also bid thee again, and a recompence be made thee. 13 But when thou makest a feast, call the poor, the maimed, the lame, the blind: 14 And thou shalt be blessed; for they cannot recompense thee: for thou shalt be recompensed at the resurrection of the just.

Both are examples of proper, though archaic, usages of the word “worship” and in both cases are clearly meant to express the bestowal of great honor and veneration on a person, far short of that worship that is given to God alone.


#7

[quote=VociMike]I really wish Catholics wouldn’t say stuff like this! I have defended the Church’s teachings on Mary many times, but I sure won’t and can’t defend this kind of loose, inflammatory language.

It is true that one of the older meanings of “worship” is simply to venerate or give respect. Using that older meaning it is right to say that we worship Mary, but the older meaning has become obsolete.
[/quote]

But this man did appear to be from England. They address their judges there as your worship! Although that meaning is obsolete in our neck of the woods, the use of language may be quite different where he comes from.


#8

[quote=axolotl]But this man did appear to be from England. They address their judges there as your worship! Although that meaning is obsolete in our neck of the woods, the use of language may be quite different where he comes from.
[/quote]

That’s a good point, thanks for bringing it up.


#9

Thanks for the input, especially about the use of the word “worship” in British culture. I’m still a bit confused about the divine queen part.

I did get the feeling that the show was recorded some time ago (years) and is being replayed, so perhaps it is “archaic” in that way.

Personally, I think I am too simplistic and directly wired to be able to really discern between fine lines and levels of veneration. I get a sort of visceral response and have to watch myself carefully lest I be led astray.

cheddar


#10

I agree that the EWTN speaker was no doubt using the word worship in it’s archaic sense of “veneration,” but still, a person addressing an American audience ought to know better than to use that word. It has a totally different connotation to the average American listener.
Love,
Jaypeeto3


#11

[quote=cheddarsox]Thanks for the input, especially about the use of the word “worship” in British culture. I’m still a bit confused about the divine queen part.

I did get the feeling that the show was recorded some time ago (years) and is being replayed, so perhaps it is “archaic” in that way.

Personally, I think I am too simplistic and directly wired to be able to really discern between fine lines and levels of veneration. I get a sort of visceral response and have to watch myself carefully lest I be led astray.

cheddar
[/quote]

Why would it be troubling for a pantheist to worship Mary? :wink: (Sorry for the jab) We Catholics don’t worship Mary as we do God the Father, His Son, and the Spirit… but the word ‘worship’ has changed much in our 21st century usage. Pull out an Oxford English Dictionary and check it out.

God(s) bless :smiley: :wink:


#12

[quote=cheddarsox]I’m still a bit confused about the divine queen part.
[/quote]

If he did say that then I’m surprised–every Catholic knows (or at least should, especially on a public program) that Mary is not divine! She is, however, hailed as Queen of Heaven.

[quote=Lillith]It has always been my understanding…for so long now that I cannot give the source of my knowledge…that the Angels are envious of us men. That the Angels are in OUR service, and that in the whole scheme of things we are stationed above them.

That being said…they possible should worship Mary. I have heard that they are envious of our free will and our Likeness to God…and Mary Choose to bring the son of God into the world feely…exercising faith that they wish they could exercise.
[/quote]

I think you might be mixing up angels with demons. Angels are perfectly happy and they have no envy–they are also greater than us in glory. The only human beings greater than the angels are Christ, by nature, and Mary, by grace.
Demons are certainly envy of us (and hate us), especially Mary. That God would choose to become a man born of woman is repulsive to them.


#13
  1. The word worship, though perhaps arcahic, has long been a perfectly valid use of the word in regards to veneration. That the term has been used in past centuries is a fact that is not going to go away. The proper resonse is to not dumb down the language by hiding the word away and being embarassed whenever it turns up, but to take the opportunity to educate people and explain the word as it has, legitimately, being used.

  2. As I explained on another post, there is nothing wrong with the term “divine mother.” Just because someone is called the royal baker, that doesn’t make that person royalty; it is simply a description of his role.


#14

[quote=Semper Fi]Why would it be troubling for a pantheist to worship Mary? :wink: (Sorry for the jab) We Catholics don’t worship Mary as we do God the Father, His Son, and the Spirit… but the word ‘worship’ has changed much in our 21st century usage. Pull out an Oxford English Dictionary and check it out.

God(s) bless :smiley: :wink:
[/quote]

I don’t worship Mary. If you noticed it was a jab before you hit “submit” maybe it would have been better not to submit it?

I wasn’t concerned for myself, I was confused because I have thought what he was saying was contradictory to the Catholic faith.

Thanks for reminding me why I had stopped posting here. You can pile on a lot of smilies, but I still feel “dissed”.

I now understand and accept the explanations provided on the word usage, as I indicated above.

I felt like I was being civil here when I asked this question and responded to the replys, but you felt the need to get your “digs” in. Barb well noted and felt.

goodbye,

cheddar


#15

[quote=Fidelis]1. The word worship, though perhaps arcahic, has long been a perfectly valid use of the word in regards to veneration. That the term has been used in past centuries is a fact that is not going to go away. The proper resonse is to not dumb down the language by hiding the word away and being embarassed whenever it turns up, but to take the opportunity to educate people and explain the word as it has, legitimately, being used.

  1. As I explained on another post, there is nothing wrong with the term “divine mother.” Just because someone is called the royal baker, that doesn’t make that person royalty; it is simply a description of his role.
    [/quote]

Yes, I see how the different word usage can confuse the issue. I was raised (Catholic in fact) with the teaching that worship was reserved for God alone. That was how it was worded. And in my faith now, the word is also used to describe the unique devotion that is given to the divine. The word venerate was always used when referring to the devotion given to the Saints and Mary. That is why I was confused. I was not familiar with the word “worship” being used for more than one thing within the teachings of the Church. Now that people have pointed out that it is used to describe other types of devotion, and that the word is even more commonly used for such in Britain (clearly the speaker was British) I understand.

cheddar


#16

[quote=Jaypeeto4]I agree that the EWTN speaker was no doubt using the word worship in it’s archaic sense of “veneration,” but still, a person addressing an American audience ought to know better than to use that word. It has a totally different connotation to the average American listener.
Love,
Jaypeeto3
[/quote]

There were several things about the show that gave me the idea that it may have been recorded some years ago, and perhaps it was originally recorded for a UK audience.

A good bit of the language he uses is “old fashioned” and the tape just has an “old” sound to it, an almost hollow tone that is missing from current recording. So, though technically we speak the same language, perhaps something was lost in translation over the Atalantic and the decades.

Does anyone here know the show I am speaking of? It doesn’t seem to be on everyday, so I’m not sure when to “tune in” to catch the speakers name. I can only get the station in my car and in certain parts of town.The signal is patchy.

cheddar


#17

[quote=Neithan]If he did say that then I’m surprised–every Catholic knows (or at least should, especially on a public program) that Mary is not divine! She is, however, hailed as Queen of Heaven.
[/quote]

[right]JMJ + OBT[/right]

The use of the word “divine” was used somewhat interchangeably with “holy” and “sacred” and “blessed” in English spiritual works, even as late as the beginning of the 20th Century. If you read some of the older titles re-published by TAN, which are usually translations from some other language like French or Italian, this usage of “divine” pops up fairly often.

For example in the first chapter of TAN’s edition of the 19th Century English-translation of St. Louis de Monfort’s “True Devotion to Mary,” the author refers to Mary as “divine.” But the meaning is not “Divine” with a capital “D,” as in the Divine Nature of the Three Persons of the Blessed Trinity. Rather, the meaning should understood to be “most holy” or “of the greatest sanctity,” and English-speaking Catholics of that era would have understood this to be the case.

I think that American Catholics, especially, have become hypersensitive to words and phrases that might give a Protestant the wrong impression. At first, I think the switch to words and phrases – regarding saints and devotions, etc. – which aren’t “loaded” with Catholic presuppositions was done deliberately, in the hopes that the Catholic Faith and Church would become more approachable from a Protestant perspective. This began in earnest about 60 years ago, judging by subtle and sometimes sharp changes in Catholic literature and liturgy. But then it mutated in our subconsciences from a deliberate avoidance to a self-inflicted hypersensitivity over time. That’s my theory anyway . . .

In the Hearts of Jesus and Mary.

IC XC NIKA


#18

[quote=cheddarsox]I don’t worship Mary. If you noticed it was a jab before you hit “submit” maybe it would have been better not to submit it?

I wasn’t concerned for myself, I was confused because I have thought what he was saying was contradictory to the Catholic faith.

Thanks for reminding me why I had stopped posting here. You can pile on a lot of smilies, but I still feel “dissed”.

I now understand and accept the explanations provided on the word usage, as I indicated above.

I felt like I was being civil here when I asked this question and responded to the replys, but you felt the need to get your “digs” in. Barb well noted and felt.

goodbye,

cheddar
[/quote]

cheddar,

i appreciate your concerns over the potential misleading usage of the word word ‘worship’. but i am just curious as to why you consider yourself a pantheist? i would pm you, but pm’ing you without your permission would be rude.


#19

[quote=Semper Fi]cheddar,

i appreciate your concerns over the potential misleading usage of the word word ‘worship’. but i am just curious as to why you consider yourself a pantheist? i would pm you, but pm’ing you without your permission would be rude.
[/quote]

Feel free to PM me.

I consider myself a pantheist because that is my religion and faith.

I hold pantheistic beliefs and practice pantheistic rituals, and belong to pantheist groups. I worship a pantheist concept of the divine.

But I also enjoy religion and spiritual topics and theology in general. So I read and listen to programming of other faiths. I even monetarily support my local Christian radio station. A great deal of the music fits right in with my understanding of the divine, and I appreciate the teaching on the importance of faith, ethics and recognition of the divine.

We don’t agree on the details but we have a great deal in common. I tune in to EWTN from time to time. It keeps me thinking about issues. Sometimes those we don’t see eye to eye with do us a great favor by causing us to think deeply about, and clarify our beliefs. They keep us “on our toes” so to speak.

cheddar


#20

[quote=whosebob]I think that American Catholics, especially, have become hypersensitive to words and phrases that might give a Protestant the wrong impression. At first, I think the switch to words and phrases – regarding saints and devotions, etc. – which aren’t “loaded” with Catholic presuppositions was done deliberately, in the hopes that the Catholic Faith and Church would become more approachable from a Protestant perspective. This began in earnest about 60 years ago, judging by subtle and sometimes sharp changes in Catholic literature and liturgy. But then it mutated in our subconsciences from a deliberate avoidance to a self-inflicted hypersensitivity over time. That’s my theory anyway . . .
[/quote]

I think that theory is spot-on! We are apologizing or standing there shamed-faced when we should be using the opportunity to teach the Faith.


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