Please help - bible passage


Can anyone suggest a bible passage that will suggest that belief in God is ultimately about faith in him - not whether you have witnessed a miracle or something like that?


[quote=Achatius]Can anyone suggest a bible passage that will suggest that belief in God is ultimately about faith in him - not whether you have witnessed a miracle or something like that?

John 20:
29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

this one help??



[quote=Achatius]Can anyone suggest a bible passage that will suggest that belief in God is ultimately about faith in him - not whether you have witnessed a miracle or something like that?

11 And the Pharisees came forth, and began to question with him, asking him a sign from heaven, tempting him. 12 And sighing deeply in spirit, he saith: Why doth this generation seek a sign? Amen, I say to you, a sign shall not be given to this generation. [Mark8]




Anyone got a passage for God testing us?


[quote=Achatius]Anyone got a passage for God testing us?

There are many places where God indicates He tries us to see if we love Him.

Deuteronomy 13:3 … for the Lord your God trieth you, that it may appear whether you love him with all your heart, and with all your soul, or not.

Psalms 10:6 The Lord trieth the just and the wicked: but he that loveth iniquity hateth his own soul.

Proverbs 17:3 As silver is tried by fire, and gold in the furnace: so the Lord trieth the hearts.

Ecclesiasticus 27:6 The furnace trieth the potter’s vessels, and the trial of affliction just men.

Zacharias 13:9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined: and I will try them as gold is tried. They shall call on my name, and I will hear them. I will say: Thou art my people: and they shall say: The Lord is my God.

2 Corinthians 13:5 Try your own selves if you be in the faith; prove ye yourselves. Know you not your own selves, that Christ Jesus is in you, unless perhaps you be reprobates?

James 1:3 Knowing that the trying of your faith worketh patience.

1 Peter 4:12 Dearly beloved, think not strange the burning heat which is to try you, as if some new thing happened to you; 13 But if you partake of the sufferings of Christ, rejoice that when his glory shall be revealed, you may also be glad with exceeding joy. … 15 But let none of you suffer as a murderer, or a thief, or a railer, or a coveter of other men’s things. … 19 Wherefore let them also that suffer according to the will of God, commend their souls in good deeds to the faithful Creator.

Hope this helps



[quote=johnshelby]John 20:
29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.
this one help??

I want to get thoughts on this. I was talking about this verse with a friend of mine the other day. When I talk with Mormons, for instance, about the true faith, I will mention the mountain of evidence against the claims of their church as opposed to what we, as Catholics use in the early church writings and such to verify ours. Sooo often, when I take this approach with other groups, the answer is this verse. “See,” they’ll tell me, “you’re trying to be like Thomas and you need to see instead of just believing.” My theory, though, is that Jesus is not condemning anyone for testing their faith. After all, we are told to test all spirits. However, most people think “faith” means that we just take the religion our parents or pastor passed onto us and accept it without question. “I just know there’s a God because I have faith.” That’s silly, I think. Look at Thomas - Jesus is criticizing him for needing to “see” to believe because Thomas already had sufficient proof in what Christ had shown him, through his miracles and teachings, before the crucifixion. Or take the Pharisees in this quote:

He isn’t made so much that they want a sign - he’s mad because they’ve already had all the signs they should need in the Old Testament prophesies, yet they demand more.

I think the “I just have faith” approach is what keeps a lot of people from searching and finding the true faith because they assume that “faith” means we just accept without examination. The Mormons call it the burning in the bossom, but basically every group has their own version of this blind acceptance. I think what these verses mean is that, through the evidence that God has already shown us, we need to do a complete search for the truth. We shouldn’t ask for additional signs beyond that. After all, is it really “invinsible ignorance” if someone never took the opportunity to truly test (in an objective way) what they had been taught.

I don’t know - I don’t think I did a good job writing that the way it has been turning over in my head, so I apologize for the confusion, but does anyone have any thoughts. I mean, how many of you have heard people say, “I believe it because I have faith” when they don’t know whether that faith is really from God or trickery from someone else or misconception from personal bias?


Here is my simple take on things. We are told to love the Lord God with all of our Heart, Soul, Mind and Strength

While it is true that we are limited in a capability to understand Divine things, I find it unbelievable that God would give us this wonderful capability to reason, and think, and reflect, and explore, only to ask us to abandon this gift to have faith in Him. In fact it is true that we have been given this wonderful gift to delight and rejoice in the Lord.

This is why I love philosophy, theology and apologetics so much. Because it stretches the capacity of the human mind to its limits and allows us to rejoice and delight in the Truth, in God’s Divine Wisdom, and so on.

We need to be careful though.

19As the Scriptures say,

“I will destroy human wisdom
and discard their most brilliant ideas.”

20So where does this leave the philosophers, the scholars, and the world’s brilliant debaters? God has made them all look foolish and has shown their wisdom to be useless nonsense. 21Since God in his wisdom saw to it that the world would never find him through human wisdom, he has used our foolish preaching to save all who believe. 22God’s way seems foolish to the Jews because they want a sign from heaven to prove it is true. And it is foolish to the Greeks because they believe only what agrees with their own wisdom. 23So when we preach that Christ was crucified, the Jews are offended, and the Gentiles say it’s all nonsense. 24But to those called by God to salvation, both Jews and Gentiles, Christ is the mighty power of God and the wonderful wisdom of God. 25This “foolish” plan of God is far wiser than the wisest of human plans, and God’s weakness is far stronger than the greatest of human strength.

Here is how i look at it. If we look around at the world we can deduce rather easily that a Creator exists.
From Psalm 19

The heavens tell of the glory of God.
The skies display his marvelous craftsmanship.
Day after day they continue to speak;
night after night they make him known.
They speak without a sound or a word;
their voice is silent in the skies;
yet their message has gone out to all the earth,
and their words to all the world.

So it is our duty as human beings to ask ourselves things like, who is this Creator? Why am I here?

As long as humans have existed, they have speculated about deity, religion and philosophy. The truth is that generation to generation has sought to know the answers to these simple questions. We have a longing for something deeper engraved upon our hearts and minds and souls. Now, there have been many ideas as to what this Creator may be like, how we are to interact with Him, and what He wants. But it is all speculation. However, unless this Creator revealed Himself to man, every person would be justifiably entitled to believe whatever He or She wanted. BUT if this Creator revealed Himself to man in a way that only He could, wouldn’t it be our obligation to take heed? The truth is, it would be a grave injustice and abandonment of truth if we would simply disregard such an invitation to know our Creator.


Well, God has revealed Himself to man in a way that only He could. Im taking this from a paper I wrote for comp 2.

Think: “A man who goes about talking as if He was God. He claims to forgive sins. He says He has always existed. He says He is coming to judge the world at the end of time…what this man said was, quite simply, the most shocking things that has ever been uttered by human lips.” (Lewis, 55) It is true that time and again Jesus acknowledged that He was the Son of God, the Son of Man, the Christ; all allusions to the prophesized Messiah. With this in mind, people still unknowingly fall into the trap that Jesus was simply an enlightened spiritual guru among the others like Confucius, Mohamed, or Buddha. If the New Testament is indeed an accurate and reliable record of history, which it has proven to be apart from the anti-supernaturalism bias, then it also follows that Jesus of Nazareth claimed equality with God. Acclaimed author, teacher and philosopher, and former atheist C.S. Lewis adequately and humorously summarizes the argument of the trilemma: either Jesus is Lord, a liar or a lunatic (“New Evidence…”, 159).

I am trying here to prevent anyone saying the really foolish thing that people often say about Him: “I’m ready to accept Jesus as a great moral teacher, but I don’t accept His claim to be God.” That is the one thing we must not say. A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic─ on a level with the man who says he is a poached egg─ or else he would be the Devil of Hell. You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God: or else a madman or something worse. You can shut Him up for a fool, you can spit at Him and kill Him as a demon; or you can fall at His feet and call Him Lord and God. But let us not come with any patronizing nonsense about His being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to (56).

From here we can journey to some really good Catholic apologetics to see, that Jesus spent three years laying the foundation of His Church. History proves that Church to be the Holy Catholic Church that has perpetually existed even untoday.


[quote=Achatius]Anyone got a passage for God testing us?

Go to Gen 22 where God tests Abraham.

closed #11

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