Please help me prove/disprove!

youtube.com/watch?v=aAjqj-hrriA&index=2&list=PLN_fXGtp2qszmv2WJp0rYEXYvVtwI4xy8

Please help me out with this one. My buddy sent me this documentary the other day. The documentary starts out studying the Bible for prophecy about the antichrist. By the end of the hour long documentary, it is concluded that Bible Prophecy points towards the Papacy and the Vatican as the “little horn” from the book of Daniel, aka the antichrist. all of their findings seem to be historically and Biblically accurate interpretations. please please help me out with this one!

God Bless and Mary Keep,

-Sean

Check out the Bible Studies on ICC on the St. John’s Apocalypse instituteofcatholicculture.org/library/sacred-scripture/

Let this one go. Try some other sources for Bible study, as another poster has suggested.

…only when viewed through logical fallacy/deceptive reasoning tactics, such as non-sequitur. Before you go any further, begin HERE with a primer by Matt Fradd and then learn more about how to recognize logical fallacies.

…all of their findings seem to be historically and Biblically accurate interpretations…

…except for the fact that they are not. Whatever historical and Biblical accuracy the documentary provides is then twisted through the aforementioned fallacies/deceptions to lead to a false conclusion.
Allow me to demonstrate: “The Bible says the ‘whore’ is represented by 7 hills, so it MUST be Rome!”, they say. Um, no, first you have to prove that “7 hills” is an accurate understanding, and then you have to prove that this really does mean “Rome” and not some other place, or time, or collection of people, or paganism as a whole, or any host of other things it could possibly mean.
Here’s another: “Pagans worhsiped a sun-figure, and Catholic communion wafers are round, like the sun, so Cahtolics are pagan!”, they might say. Um, pagans also bathed. So, anyone who bathes is a pagan. Pagans called their diety(s) “God”, so all people who believe in God are pagans. Pagans exchanged rings instead of livestock at weedings, so everyone wiht a wedding ring is a pagan. You see the ridiculous conclusions you can come to with faulty reasoning, right? That’s what that hour-long documentary is…an hour long schlub of logical fallacy. Don’t waste your time on it…make people prove their assertions based on sound logic.

I would study and read about end times and dispensationalism from two very good Catholic books “Will Catholics be left behind” and “The Rapture Trap”. Both books go into the nonsense all of this is. Martin Luther was the one that did start the Pope is the anti-Christ. Don’t let some crazy youtube video by some fundamentalist shake your faith. Catholic answers likewise has a number of great links in dealing with nuts like this. The problem is that while these people think they are so “Biblical”, they in reality are not. This junk is not support in the Bible and even by historical Christian thought both Catholic, Protestant and Orthodox. If this is a “friend” that sent you this, I would find new friends.

I found this book from CA very helpful. Click on the image.
shop.catholic.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/370x/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/e/n/end-of-the-world.jpg

just curious, did any of you guys watch the documentary or did u just read my post, say “pffft, that’s ridiculous” and the continued to respond? not to sound mad or upset, but i would not have inquired into this if i was not honestly concerned. i have grown up catholic, my parents are huge in the church, my dad is actually going through formation and training for the deaconin. i understand these things do not give me credibility, i am just explaining that i did not BY ANT MEANS make this thread on a whim. i understand how radical this sounds but i urge you to please watch the video. i know it is kind of long but to fully answer and understand my question, you need to see this video and see what they are saying. i thank all of you for you responses but i am looking for apologetic arguments against their claims. anyone can say, ''oh those guys are kooks, just forget about them listen to this." i really do appreciate the suggestions of new learning avenues however, i have heard these radical claims and i am looking for evidence either way. please watch the video and let me know what that part of Daniel really means. i am just looking for the truth guy.

I don’t know if I’ve seen the video but I have seen programs on the History channal on the Bible. When they are on the end of the world and the antichrist they are not realable or very Catholic/Christian. :slight_smile: :smiley: :stuck_out_tongue:

i appreciate the response but this documentary is not from the history channel. please respond after you have watched the video. i am not trying to damn anyone, watching the video will not condemn you. God wants us to wonder and ask questions. as long as we do not stray too far from the path of course. one must see things from all points of view before one can make an educated decision on anything. when all of your information comes from a single source, you need to take a step back and think.

Both. I’ve wathced videos AND read articles with the same exact theme and claims, same misinformation, etc…and I’m watching the one you linked right now. It’s garbage…I stand 100% behind my last post and all the other posts by other members who have responded. Don’t waste your time on being preached at about this. The video is an hour-long schlub of logical fallacy/deceptive reasoning. It’s like they tried to figure out how many non-sequiturs they fit into an hour…and then won teh guiness record for doing it.

“This third beast is follwoed by a fourth beast, and that forth beast is a symbol of the Roman Empire…”. Really? Why does this person believe that? Because some random guy who hated the Catholic Church said so? Oh, okay…then it MUST be true. :rolleyes:

Is there a particularly troubling bit within there that you find troubling that you want to see addressed specifically? Please be specific.

“…the blashphemy [of claiming to be able to fogive sins]…”

Hmmm…so Jesus was obviously encouraging blashphemy when He told His Apostles, “whose sins you forgive are forgiven” (Jn 20:23) and in Mt 18:18, and God inspired James to speak blashpemy in James 5:13-15. :rolleyes:

Garbage.

But WAIT!!! The 2nd Commandment about idol worhsip has been REMOVED by the Church!!! And the “real” 10th Commandment was split into two to make up for it. GASP!

…and the original numeration of the 10 commandments is found, WHERE and WHEN? There are 14 or so linear commands there…so who decided how to group and number them? The commandment agaisnt idol WORSHIP is part of the first Commandment. That’s the ONLY explanation that makes sense given God’s command to make graven images and having such images in His temple. Notice they didn’t quote that Scripture passage? There’s a reason for that. :wink:

Garbage.

I was raised in a Christian religion that had its root in Puritanism. We preached the Pope was the antichrist, carrying on those roots. The teaching is deeply embedded in some of those Puritan based sects. So much so it takes a very long time to get them out of the system.

The antichrist IS going to outlaw the daily sacrifice, that is the Eucharistic celebration. If you can imagine that being enacted by a Vatican Council, then I guess one has the imagination to believe anything as being possible, except maybe that the Pope is Catholic.

Look, i totally understand where you are coming from, and where you stand on this idea. they explain in depth how their labeling of these beasts from the Book of Daniel are by no means new ways of interpretation. they even go on to show a statue that depicts each beast discussed in Daniel, and sitting in front of each beast is a soldier from the corresponding nation/empire, showing that this is not a new interpretation. how these beasts correspond to the figure that Nebuchadnezzar saw in a vision. i am looking for someone to explain to me the catholic interpretation of all of this. the one section of the film that i am most skeptical about is the part when it talks about the church altering the 10 Commandments. I have only heard of that claim once but i had thought it to be an extremely outlandish claim.
answers i am looking for

  1. how does the catholic church interpret the 4 beasts; more specifically the 4th beast with its 11 horns.
  2. why does the papal exile in 1798 line up so perfectly with the “1260 year prophecy”

in my years of life i have come to realize there are no such things as coincidences.

Thank you for the help!

-Sean

One also needs to consider the source and be cautious about exposing one’s self to things which might damage his/her Faith. Someone who is not able to recognize deceipt easily would not be wise to watch this video, because they might be led astray from Truth. It is a sin to put one’s Faith in danger. That is why I told you to FIRST learn to recognize logical fallacy and deceptive reasoning, BEFORE watching these things. You need to be able to know when people are telling a lie or using faulty/deceptive “logic”.

At least 2 or 3 people have done exactly that in recommending books which talk EXACTLY about this. So, there you go.

the one section of the film that i am most skeptical about is the part when it talks about the church altering the 10 Commandments. I have only heard of that claim once but i had thought it to be an extremely outlandish claim.

Ask those people to show you the evidence that supports the claim. There is none. (See post #12 for an example.)

answers i am looking for

  1. how does the catholic church interpret the 4 beasts; more specifically the 4th beast with its 11 horns.

Follow the sources provided to you here already.

  1. why does the papal exile in 1798 line up so perfectly with the “1260 year prophecy”

Why would it matter? It’s a non-sequitur. Why does the foundress of one of the “unitarian” sects’ name tally up to the number 666? The answer: it’s not relevant. That’s just people making questions to fit pre-determined answers based on re-aligned “evidence” to make some random claim.

in my years of life i have come to realize there are no such things as coincidences.

Why do you believe there are no such things as coincidences? And why does it matter if you believe that? If this is really true (that there are none), are you prepared to claim “pagan!” on everyone who takes a bath or visits a public swimming pool? Answer honestly.

Look, if you are really trying to find the Truth behind all this, you need to first learn how to recognize untruth/deception. Start at post #4 and read that VERY SHORT article by Matt Fradd I recommended (or visit any nubmer of dozens of secular sites that discuss logical fallacies).

Then, utilize the resources recommended in posts 2, 5, and 6 for the Catholic perspective on this topic.

I honestly didn’t need to watch the video, I am already very familiar with their arguments and ideas after having dabbling with this thinking in the past. I don’t need to watch anti-Catholic garbage. Educating yourself with the books suggested will help you understand the thinking of dispensationalism which is what is behind this and Left Behind series etc and so on. The books I suggested likewise have incredible Catholic and Protestant resources. While you normally don’t hear from them, there are many Protestants that are concern and against this stuff. Likewise, it can be a little suspicious of a new poster (and I am not saying that your are) of being a troll, which means that one comes on pretending to be a Catholic, have a link to some very anti-Catholic video or web site etc and then ask as you did what about this. I want to believe you are really trying to seek out Catholic answers to this. I don’t watch garbage and the claims in this are bogus and anti-Catholic.

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