Please help me...

understand the Church’s teaching on Colossians 2:6-19.
I am this < > close to getting baptized, and after overcoming a few minor hiccups, I had reached my spiritual comfort zone; then I came across this passage. I really need to understand this passage before I get baptized into the Church, so I can in all honesty say, I believe in all She teaches.
Any light shed on this matter will be gratefully received. Thank you.
(Says a silent prayer, in the hope this message finds its way onto the board. I posted it in Ask An Apologist and then when it didn’t show up there, I tried in here. Unfortunately, an error occured as I posted it, and it did not post. I am starting to think I am not meant to ask this question!)
Peace to all :slight_smile:

Could you elaborate a little further? What exactly is your concern. I have just finished reading these verses and I have a Catholic commentary on it, but I don’t want to answer in a way that does not address you concerns.

Colossians 2:6-19 As therefore you have received Jesus Christ the Lord, walk ye in him; 7 Rooted and built up in him, and confirmed in the faith, as also you have learned, abounding in him in thanksgiving. 8 Beware lest any man cheat you by philosophy, and vain deceit; according to the tradition of men, according to the elements of the world, and not according to Christ: 9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead corporeally; 10 And you are filled in him, who is the head of all principality and power:

11 In whom also you are circumcised with circumcision not made by hand, in despoiling of the body of the flesh, but in the circumcision of Christ: 12 Buried with him in baptism, in whom also you are risen again by the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him up from the dead. 13 And you, when you were dead in your sins, and the uncircumcision of your flesh; he hath quickened together with him, forgiving you all offences: 14 Blotting out the handwriting of the decree that was against us, which was contrary to us. And he hath taken the same out of the way, fastening it to the cross: 15 And despoiling the principalities and powers, he hath exposed them confidently in open shew, triumphing over them in himself.

16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat or in drink, or in respect of a festival day, or of the new moon, or of the sabbaths, 17 Which are a shadow of things to come, but the body is of Christ. 18 Let no man seduce you, willing in humility, and religion of angels, walking in the things which he hath not seen, in vain puffed up by the sense of his flesh, 19 And not holding the head, from which the whole body, by joints and bands, being supplied with nourishment and compacted, groweth unto the increase of God.

So just what all is the problem with this passage? There is no conflict between this passage and Catholic teaching.

[quote=paxvobiscum]Could you elaborate a little further? What exactly is your concern. I have just finished reading these verses and I have a Catholic commentary on it, but I don’t want to answer in a way that does not address you concerns.
[/quote]

2:8 Beware lest any man cheat you by philosophy and vain deceit: according to the tradition of men according to the elements of the world and not according to Christ.2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat or in drink or in respect of a festival day or of the new moon or of the sabbaths, 2:18 Let no man seduce you, willing in humility and religion of angels, walking in the things which he hath not seen, in vain puffed up by the sense of his flesh:In the context of the whole passage, these verses are my main concern.
For example, I am a big supporter of the Early Church Fathers, but as we have gone along, have we added to the faith to the point it is hardly recognizable from the days of Christ and the Apostles? Are we to observe Holy Days, and if we don’t, are we truly commiting a mortal sin? Are some of the ritual we adhere to entirely necessary for salvation, especially those rituals which have taken centuries to come into being? I believe in intercessoy prayer etc; however, should we be putting quite so much emphasis on the Angels and Saints?
I mean no disrespect, and am truly trying to clear up these concerns before I get baptized. Guess this is where self interpretation gets people confused and into deep trouble, without some authoritive teaching.
Thank you:)

I apologize if this question seems offensive, it certainly is not meant to be. Please appreciate that this forum is my main support base in a way. I was the only one in my family not to be baptized (for reasons I won’t go into), but was raised in the Anglican church, so my family aren’t exactly rejoicing at my forthcoming baptism in the Catholic Church. My friends are not very religious and my hubby thinks I’ve gone loopy. I think you get my drift.
I come from a town which has one Priest, who has to tend four churches in the Parish, therefore he is spread quite thin. Our church is only open saturday evening and sunday morning, and trying to catch him as he flies to the next church, is nigh on impossible!
We have a congregation of considerably less than 100 people, and we have no RCIA classes. As you can probably imagine, the issue of Holy days of obligation being observed is an isue for me, as unless they fall on saturday or Sunday, we can’t fulfill this obligation.
There is one Christian shop here, and in that, I found one book of devotional readings regarding the Church Fathers, and the other was a book on the movie, Passion of the Christ! All the bibles were of the 66 book variety, and when I asked about the Douay-Rheims, because it was a Catholic version, the lady asked “Is there a difference?” I preceded to fill her in on the differences and she said, “Oh, I didn’t know. I’ll have to ask my husabnd; he’s a Catholic.” :eek:
I have done some research and plan on ordering some books, but as you can imagine, my main resource has been the internet; of which I need to wade through alot of dross to find pearls of wisdom. The people on this forum have helped immesurably, because whilst I myself have only posted twice for my own benefit, many others have posted questions and answers, which have definitely helped.
Once again, I mean no disrespct, and value any information you can give.

[font=Times New Roman]What this is talking about is how you die with Christ. This passage is a really good support for Limited Atonement, because it affirms that Christ saved us on the cross and not just enabled. This passage talks about how it is symbolic when we go into the water we die for sin (as in with Christ on the cross) and when we come up we are newly born (resurrect with Christ). This is a very powerful passage that most Armenians avoid because they can not explain.

I am happy to see you fulfilling a commandment of the Lord. Live earnestly and strive for the goal which is to glorify the Lord God Almighty. God bless you.

Solo Christo

Soli Deo Gloria!

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[quote=Nun_ofthe_Above]understand the Church’s teaching on Colossians 2:6-19.
I am this < > close to getting baptized, and after overcoming a few minor hiccups, I had reached my spiritual comfort zone; then I came across this passage. I really need to understand this passage before I get baptized into the Church, so I can in all honesty say, I believe in all She teaches.
Any light shed on this matter will be gratefully received. Thank you.
(Says a silent prayer, in the hope this message finds its way onto the board. I posted it in Ask An Apologist and then when it didn’t show up there, I tried in here. Unfortunately, an error occured as I posted it, and it did not post. I am starting to think I am not meant to ask this question!)
Peace to all :slight_smile:
[/quote]

Jesus told the Apostles whatever you bind on earth will be bound in Heaven, so yes the Church can make changes, under the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

But the Holy Spirit will never oppose it self, for as Jesus said, no Kingdom divided against it-self will stand.

And as you know the Cathoic Church has been battered and bruised, truly a victim & pilgrim Church on earth, but it’s still alive and kicking.

                                                    God Bless.

others here are more qualified that I to comment on the scripture passage, but if you are struggling with studying Church teaching on your own, first call the diocese and see if there are any RCIA or inquiry classes close to you. then try www.catechismclass.com for on line study, they now have an adult track. Also Liguori press at www.liguori.org has a CAtholic Home Study packet that is excellent.

Okay Nun, let’s take it apart a chunk at a time, alright?And as the cover of The Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Galaxy says, “ Don’t Panic!”

Colossians 2:6-19

As therefore you have received Jesus Christ the Lord, walk ye in him; 7 Rooted and built up in him, and confirmed in the faith, as also you have learned, abounding in him in thanksgiving. 8 Beware lest any man cheat you by philosophy, and vain deceit; according to the tradition of men, according to the elements of the world, and not according to Christ:

Okay, Please bear in mind that what the Catholic Church teaches is living Apostolic Tradition, not some philosophy or vain deceit. (Has anyone yet seemed to you to be deceptive about the faith?) This is not tradition of men, but historical beliefs and practices of the early church. Who would know better than Ignatius of Antioch what St. John believed about The Eucharist, or what the 1st century Christian church was really called by the believers. That’s just one example among all of them but it stands to reason. Where are these “elements of the world” in Catholicism? I have not seen them, but I have seen great love, compassion, and the fruits of spirit filled life among the believers that are in my parish and among the souls on this forum.

9 For in him dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead corporeally; 10 And you are filled in him, who is the head of all principality and power:

11 In whom also you are circumcised with circumcision not made by hand, in despoiling of the body of the flesh, but in the circumcision of Christ: 12 Buried with him in baptism, in whom also you are risen again by the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him up from the dead. 13 And you, when you were dead in your sins, and the uncircumcision of your flesh; he hath quickened together with him, forgiving you all offences: 14 Blotting out the handwriting of the decree that was against us, which was contrary to us. And he hath taken the same out of the way, fastening it to the cross: 15 And despoiling the principalities and powers, he hath exposed them confidently in open shew, triumphing over them in himself.

16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat or in drink, or in respect of a festival day, or of the new moon, or of the Sabbaths,

Now, we all know that fasting and holy days have been part of our faith since the 1st century. Many were established to replace pagan feasts with feasts that honor Christ. What’s wrong with that? Are we not told to take every thought captive for Christ? To me that is just exactly what this is. People have said stuff about our days overlapping the pagan ones, but my answer is ; “Well, would you rather we celebrated the original pagan feast in question instead of a celebration of Christian belief?” Also to me, this verse says for us not to sweat it if someone doesn’t celebrate a feast like we do. This is a matter of conscience and it doesn’t faze me if someone chooses not to be Catholic. After all, it’s their soul…

17 Which are a shadow of things to come, but the body is of Christ. 18 Let no man seduce you, willing in humility, and religion of angels, walking in the things which he hath not seen, in vain puffed up by the sense of his flesh, 19 And not holding the head, from which the whole body, by joints and bands, being supplied with nourishment and compacted, groweth unto the increase of God.

These verses refer to someone departing from the Christian faith and going after money. (Simony I think it’s called). Ours is not a religion of angels Nun, ours is of Christ. Still let me say that at least we recognize the angels as messengers and caretakers of God, unlike most of our separated brethren, who forget that every soul has a guardian angel from birth and that they are faithful messengers of Our Lord. There is no worship of Mary, the saints, or angels in Catholicism and anyone who tried it would get pounced on by the rest of us in a flash. I think the most telling part of this passage is this last part of verse 18 “in vain puffed up by the sense of his flesh,” because that is one sure sign that the person is not of God. Who gets the glory? Yet to whom have you found faithful and devout Catholics giving all their praise and glory to? In our posts, at Mass, and in all our prayers?

So, my dear friend; as Pope John Paul II says, “Be not afraid.” (and remember just where he borrowed that line from huh?)

I hope that I’ve been able to answer your concerns adequately, but if not, please don’t hesitate to e-mail me and I’ll do my best to help out anyway that I can.

Since your parish has no RCIA class, could I suggest a very good alternative that I myself have completed? It’s the Catholic Home Study Service courses and they are completely free and very very good. You can sign up here: amm.org/chss/chss.htm
I did them all and I suggest that you start with “We Believe…” which is a great survey of what we really do believe. I highly recommend them to you, especially since you have no RCIA or Catholic group there. I realize that you are kinda out on a limb by yourself and I applaud your courage to pursue the truth you have found so far. I think you’ll make a great Catholic and be a real blessing to us all. I know some of your posts have impressed me so far. (Even this one!)

Feel free to call upon me if you need anything else.
Pax vobiscum,

Looks like CM did a great job! I would just like to add one thing, If you see a verse that seems to contradict the Catholic Church always read it carefully and in context. If you are still in doubt ask!

Remember Christ said to call no one on earth your father, yet Catholics do this and with great pride. It is silly to believe that Catholics have not read that scripture and do so ignorant of it. Fact is Jesus was making a point, not laying down a law. As John Martignoni says “the difference is in a literal and literalist reading of the scriptures”.

Good day and God bless!

I think many of you are missing the main point in this question (or I am!). In my reading, the concern is about the strictness of the adherence to tradition. The church has "t"radition (small “t”) and "T"radiion (big “T”). The small “t” stuff (Not eating meat any Friday) is the implementation of Big “T”'s (The right of the Church to ask you to modify your diet {for good reason}, and the need to keep in mind Christ’s suffering). The issue is not whether you eat meat or not, it is why you are (are not) eating meat. The same is true of mass attendance and all the rest.

Do not focus on the issue alone, focus on why you are doing the “thing.” In the case of meat on Friday, the sin is not in eating meat on Friday, the sin would be in eating it out of defiance to the church authority (no-one will tell me what I can or cannot eat!); or out of simple carelessness. In the case of carelessness it is a minor thing (forgetting a friend’s birthday), in the case of defiance it is a big thing (remembering the birthday but refusing to acknowledge it/ or the value of your friend). One action is an oversight, the other is an insult.

There is danger in blowing a small traditions out of proportion to where they overwhelm the important things; or in minimizing the Big Traditions to where anything goes as long as we all have warm-fuzzy feelings. As usual it is all a balance.

Nun,

I hope we can help. Now did this question come up as you were reading Scripture or did it come from an anti-Catholic source?

To explain the verses you have trouble with. A man made tradition is one like many Baptists use when they say women can’t cut their hair or wear pants. As I recall, I doubt Jesus wore pants either so why do the men in these churches wear them? That is an example of a man made tradition.

Now a Tradition is a Tradition that comes from God and His Church. The bible IS Catholic Tradition. The Bible was written from Tradition by men who believed in Tradition and was declared inspired based on Tradition. Who’s Tradition? The Tradition of Christ and the Catholic Church He founded. If you beleive the Bible is the Word of God and inerrant, then you believe in Catholic Tradition. A Tradition given us by God.

The Church was given the ‘keys’ and it is the foundation of tuth. Jesus preached a verbal ‘Gospel’. Christ never wrote a book nor did He tell us to. Jesus never commanded us to write down one word nor did he ever say we had to preach the ‘Bible’ or read it. The Messiah told us to 'preach His verbal Gospel. Gospel is verbal, Gospel is Tradition, Gospel IS Catholic. The first 300+ years of Christians were saved without a Bible! They were saved based on the Tradition from Christ passed down to them by the Catholic Church! There was NO Bible!

Jesus founded His Church, not a book. His Church gave us part of His Tradition in the form of a book called the Bible. The Bible was not even put together for hundreds of years after Jesus rose from the dead! Could you imagine a Baptist preacher up front at the pulpit 1,800 years ago in his church and yelling and screaming at his followers and thumping his, ah, well… What would he be holding up like a graven image? It wouldn’t be a bible, the Catholics hadn’t yet written and cannonized it. At best he’d be holding up a huge scroll which would only be a single book of the bible as we know it today. The other 45 books of the Old Testament would still be in their individual clay jars all over the church. Oh he might have 500-2,000 scrolls written by various sects caliming to be ‘Gospels’ hanging around the area too.

The Catholic Church used its Tradition and the authority given her by God to write, cannonize and declare inerrant the Bible with all 73 books. The Church went through thousands of so-called books/scrolls to find the ones truly inspired based on Tradition.

2,000 years ago there was not stem cell research. It is no where in the Bible either. Jesus founded a Church so that that Church could apply His Faith and Morals to our everyday life. We look to the Church for Faith and Morals since Jesus gave us the Church and in it is His authority to lead us. The book is a tool, the Church is the mechanic. When you need your car fixed do you use a book or a mechanic who wrote the book? I’ll take the mechanic anyday! I can use the book but I may not get the car fixed right either. Have you ever followed instruction when fixing a car or putting together a Christ-mass gift and then discovered parts left over? The instructions were written in Chinese? The instructions were incomplete? You discovered you could do a better job of assymbly since you needed fewer parts when the job was done and the carburater still appeared to work? My wife put a Glock pistol back together with the barrel in upside down which is supposed to be impossible! The pistol still looked right but it would not shoot! The instructor couldn’t even figure out how she did it to do it again! (You got to know my wife and her mechanical skills? She still selfinterprets Scripture too!:eek: ) This is why we have a new protestant sect pop up everyday with the changing winds.

OK, I’ll stop now and take a breath.

God bless,

Solo Christo -: Thank you for your warm support.

Joshua -: Thank you for your kind advice.

puzzleannie -: Thank you for supplying the wonderful links; I am certain they will prove very useful.

Church Militant -: Thank you for your extensive breakdown of the passage; your continued support, if I need it; your lovely compliment about making a good Catholic some day (I hope I do justice to it); and lastly, but by no means least, thank you for the wonderful link, which I am certain will help a great deal.

paxvobiscum -: Thank you for your wonderful support and advice.

MikeSPA -: Thank you for your thoughtful break down explanation and advice.

Malachi4U -: Thank you for your extensive explanation; and also, appreciate that the difficult may take a while for a woman to do; the impossible just take a little longer. :wink: To answer your question; I stumbled across the passage, and was not entirely sure how it was meant to be interpreted.

Thank you all so very much! Collectively, this has helped me more than I can say. You are all wonderful examples of Christian charity, and am pleased to have found such a wonderful forum where people are willing to help. :blessyou: all.

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