Please help refute this....Sola scripture vs Roman Catholicism

JL: Actually you just gave a good description of sola scriptura. How many faith groups has sola scriptura united? How many has it divided and still dividing? Who or what authority, in your faith group, decides what your ONLY authority is teaching. If there is a disagreement in interpretation what authority decides which is right? Paul gives the answer in 2Tm3-4. Paul names three a teaching authority (Church), scripture and Tradition.

As far as, 2Tm3:16-17, teaching scripture ALONE it doesn’t. In fact Paul tells Timothy to USE his teaching authority (magisterial authority) USING both scripture and Oral Tradition. back up to verse 14.

[2Tm3:14 But **CONTINUE THOU IN THE THINGS WHICH THOU HAST LEARNED AND hast BEEN ASSURED OF, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;]

Now pick up VERSE 15-17 and continue into chapter 4. There we see Timothy an overseer (bishop) IS the teaching AUTHORITY. That authority, Timothy, is to PREACH THE WORD, REPROVE, REBUKE, EXHORT WITH DOCTRINE. Making full use of his MINISTRY.

[Verse:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

2Tm4:1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom; 2 PREACH THE WORD; be instant in season, out of season; REPROVE, REBUKE, EXHORT WITH all long suffering and DOCTRINE. 3 For THE TIME WILL COME WHEN THEY WILL NOT ENDURE SOUND DOCTRINE; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; 4 AND THEY SHALL TURN AWAY THEIR EARS FROM THE TRUTH, and shall be turned unto fables. 5 But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, MAKE FULL PROOF OF THY MINISTRY]

[2TIM 2:1 Thou therefore, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus. 2 And **the THINGS that thou hast HEARD OF ME among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also.]

[2 TIM 1:13 **HOLD FAST THE form of SOUND WORDS, which thou hast HEARD OF ME, in faith and love which is in Christ Jesus. 14 That good thing which was COMMITTED unto thee keep by the Holy Ghost which dwelleth in us.]

Why do you think Baptist interpret scripture differently than Presbyterians? And Presbyterians differently than Pentecosts, etc. They all have the same scriptures as their SOLE AUTHORITY. All claim to be led by the same Holy Spirit in their interpretation. Each use their own passed on oral traditions handed down to interpret scripture. Sola Scriptura has done nothing but create a Tower of Babel, scattering people of faith into thousands of contentious denominations. All speaking their own faith language no longer understanding the one faith language delivered once to the saints, the Church, 1Tm3:15 But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in THE HOUSE OF GOD, which is THE CHURCH of the living God, THE PILLAR AND GROUND OF TRUTH. Sola Scriptura is nothing more than a tradition of men, Satan’s playground. The scriptures their sole authority tells them the Church is the pillar and ground of truth. Mt18:17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but IF HE NEGLECT TO HEAR THE CHRUCH, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.

[2THES 3:6 Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye **withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the TRADITION which he received of US.] It seems Paul thought Tradition is of such importance that one who does not follow them are to be shunned. Sounds like,

[Mt18:17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, **TELL IT UNTO THE CHURCH: but IF HE NEGLECT TO HEAR THE CHURCH, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.

I thought it was critical to belong to the same church to which the apostles belonged. Protestantism was born in the 16th century. Catholicism was born on Pentecost in the 1st century. That was my starting point, and I think a good starting point for anyone looking for truth. :thumbsup:

That’s an answer our protestant brothers dislike. That also coupled with the fact that our Orthodox brothers have not splintered into many different groups like Protestants, because they hold to our similar traditions as well.

Or, perhaps, you have held to theirs. :wink:

Perhaps protestants such as myself would have an easier time with the answer Joe gives were the schism resolved. As I’ve said bfore, I envy Joe’s coming to terms with it. I haven’t, and I refuse to be a lousy Catholic or lousy Orthodox.

Jon

Jon, what would be a lousy Catholic from your perspective? Curious…

I would be, Pork, if I could not accept the universal jurisdiction or infallibility (ex cathedra) of the pope. To be confirmed Catholic, and still hold this position would make me a lousy Catholic, and receptive, too. Its ironic, because I respect the CC too much to do that.

Jon

Jon, is your infallibility concern strongest on the faith part, moral part or both?

The faith part, and more specifically, the ecclesiastical part. Scripture aside, it seems to contradictory to the early councils and the early Church that produced them.

Jon

Joe I don’t mean to be picky but the Church was born when Christ side was opened it was Manifested on Pentecost. To much trouble to find it in the CCC, but I just read it. Sorry if I am being picky… I don’t know if your mis-fact would affect anything of significance but small items have caused big problems.

God bless you, your response to this fellow was excellent:thumbsup:

Given that you do reject universality and infallibility - doesn’t that make you a lousy catholic any way?

Reaffirm here that yes, indeed, the Church came to be at Pentecost through the Holy Spirit at work in the apostles…not the apostles having been anointed by Christ as the beginning.

The Last Supper was the institution of the priesthood and liturgy.

Pentecost was the beginning of the Church, including Blessed Mother and other people, all receiving tongues of fire over them, revealing that the Church comprised of priests, Blessed Mother, the bridge between the Holy Trinity and the common believers.

Subsequently there was a time in the Church, during Arianism, where most bishops initially believed that Christ had a beginning and an end, but the faithful and a small percentage of bishops did not carry the faith. St. Athanasius, bishop and theologian, was exiled 4 times because he opposed Arianism, and was instrumental in creating the Church word, consubstantiated…meaning God the Father, Jesus His Son, and Holy Spirit are all consubstantiated…of the same substance and eternal.

This was all confirmed at the Council of Nicea, thus the final revelation of the total deposit of faith in Christ, 300 years later through the Church.

No, Stew, at least no more so than any other catholic. Perhaps to be more precise, ISTM to be a good Catholic in communion with the Bishop of Rome, I would have to accept his universal jurisdiction and infallibility.

Jon

Aka, God’s guidance regarding truth…:thumbsup:

God’s guidance regarding truth. Whether or not universal jurisdiction and infallibility (ex cathedra) are truth is precisely he question, Joe. Tradition is divided.

Jon

Well, Jesus, as per scripture, did say that He would build His church on Simon, renamed Rock…and guide His church into all truth until the end of time. I suppose that is where faith comes in…:shrug:

But Christ doesn’t say that Peter has supreme jurisdiction, or that Peter is only in Rome, or that Peter is infallible (ex cathedra). And neither do the early councils.

Jon

JonNC;9693798]But Christ doesn’t say that Peter has supreme jurisdiction, or that Peter is only in Rome, or that Peter is infallible (ex cathedra). And neither do the early councils.

Jon

I agree regarding Peter and Rome. Peter is the rock on which Jesus continues to build His church on earth, not just Rome.

Infallibility is nothing more than Jesus’ perpetual guidance…

Ex cathedra are just words adopted by the church to delineate Matthew 16, in my humble opinion…

Like you said, if the east and west re-united, then you would be more open to this idea? :slight_smile:

I now have faith that God continues to guide one church into all truth until the end of time. I also believe that He loves and saves all Christians, regardless of church affiliation.

=joe370;9693826]I agree regarding Peter and Rome. Peter is the rock on which Jesus continues to build His church on earth, not just Rome.

We agree on this, but not have it extends.

Ex cathedra are just words adopted by the church to delineate Matthew 16, in my humble opinion…

Gotcha.

Like you said, if the east and west re-united, then you would be more open to this idea? :slight_smile:

I would have absolutely no choice in the matter.

I now have faith that God continues to guide one church into all truth until the end of time. I also believe that He loves and saves all Christians, regardless of church affiliation

:thumbsup:

Jon

Catholics were before Orthodox, I don’t see how?

=suzyq_psu;9122341]Hello there, I am new to these forums but I am struggling between my faith and that of scripture alone. I keep going back and forth, it’s torturous! Anyways I came upon this, so could you refute it, please? It talks about how the church wasn’t built on Peter also he has other thread talking of how Catholics were pagans turned Christians and that’s where we get most of the rituals.

prorege-forum.com/forum_entry.php?id=11558

FIRST Sola Scriptura is NOT biblically Grounded:o

**2 Cor. 13: 8 **"For we cannot do anything against the truth, but only for the truth.”

Traditions
1 Cor. 11 2: 2
“I commend you because you remember me in everything and maintain the traditions even as I have delivered them to you”

**2 Thess. 2: 13-15 **“But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God chose you from the beginning to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth. To this he called you through our gospel, so that you may obtain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter.

2 Thess. 6 Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you keep away from any brother who is living in idleness and not in accord with the tradition that you received from us

CONSIDER these critical facts:

The Bible was not fully authored until the end of the First Century and not widly used in-total for several hundred more years after Christ Death. SO HOW DID THE CHURECH EXIST, GROW, AND EXPAND W/O THE BIBLE?

Many, most if not all proponants of SS don’t even accept there own position as shown above in the TRADITION passages.

Further thaty deny what the Bible clearly, specifically and precisely say’s:
FOR EXAMPLE:

Mt. 16: 17-19 "And Jesus answered him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jona! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven. And I [GOD] tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”

Mt. 28: 16-20 "Now the eleven disciples [APOSTLES] went to Galilee, to the mountain to which Jesus had directed them. And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. [YOU!] Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you;”

Or ONLY One Church /One Faith:
John.10: 16 “And I have other sheep, that are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will heed my voice. **So there shall be one flock, one shepherd” **

Ps.127:1 “Unless the LORD builds the house, those who build it labor in vain.
Unless the LORD watches over the city, the watchman stays awake in vain”

Eph. 4: 1-7 " There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call, one Lord,*** one faith,*** one baptism, one God and Father of us all, who is above all and through all and in all."

Eph. 2:19-20 “So then you are no longer strangers and sojourners, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God,[SINGULAR] built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, in whom the whole structure is joined together and grows into a holy temple in the Lord; in whom you also are built into it for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit.”

Or forgiveness of ALL SINS [the ONLY GOD APPROVED WAY!]
John 20: 21-23 "Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. **As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.” **[22] And when he had said this, **he breathed on them, and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit. **[23] If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained."

Or the Real Presance in Catholic holy Communion confirmed in:
Mt. 26: 26-28
Mk. 14: 22-24
Lk. 22:19-21
Paul ist >Cor. 11:23-29
and John: 6 51-55 “I am the living bread which came down from heaven; if any one eats of this bread, he will live for ever; and the bread which I shall give for the life of the world is my flesh.” **The Jews then disputed among themselves, saying, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?” ** not understanding Jesus speaks here of His SOON to Be Risen and Glorified Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity]…[53] So Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you; [54] he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. How could our Perfect God be more clear?}

Each of these are put aside with a personal pridefilled philosophy of either knowing more or knowing better than Jesus Himself:eek: 'That may be what it says BUT that is NOT what it means"… rather a weak argument Hey:thumbsup:

So there you go:D

God Bless,
Pat /PJM

DISCLAIMER: The views and opinions expressed in these forums do not necessarily reflect those of Catholic Answers. For official apologetics resources please visit www.catholic.com.