Please please help.

Please Note I have also sent this to Ask an Apologist but considering its length I think it will take a while to be responded to so I figured I'd ask here as this has really concerned me. (If this is against forums policy please delete :-) )

Ok first a little background for a while now I have found myself on a search for truth and recently found William Lane Craig to be a most wonderful debater and a refreshing welcome from the likes of Sam Harris, Richard Dawkins, and Hitchins. While Hitchins is defiantly interesting all three of these characters (truly what they are) are very poor debaters. So I have recently been moving closer to theism.

I have also recently gone on Kairos (another step to theism that has helped) and prayer meetings. As you can see I have been moving closer to theism, this has been odd because for most of my life it was either meh ok go to church or why do I believe this why (going to a Catholic school I was always questioning (probably annoying my teachers too) ).

So basically I have been finding what I have truly hoped for God a true belief in him a true logical this is the truth belief (unlike what I was largely exposed to in school which was either an assumption of belief or not convincing arguments (where William Lane Craig has helped) ). I have been on a great path and one I have yearned for all my life deeply.

So now I bring you to my current problem this...
youtube.com/view_play_list?p=A0C3C1D163BE880A
having recently watched it, it has shaken my faith extremely (in fact yesterday I was in tears as I felt all hope had left me, what if this was true what if it was all just nothing)

I deeply beg for some help in refuting these claims as I deeply hope this isn't the truth but feel it is. PLEASE HELP.

Thank You, Zimmer

I do hope someone has come across this as it does take a bit to watch the 2 section (the 3 section doesn't concern me as much but still some)

The hope, the light I had I fear is like a candle in the breeze and has become now more.

Again Thank You and sorry for it being so long. :-)

Welcome to CAF, Zimmer. First of all, the link you post has a number of youtube vids on it. Which particular links are you talking about?

God bless,
jd

That guy immediately sends up a red flag and creeps me out. I do not believe that he was ever a Christian and his mission is to do exactly what he has done - to sow discord in people who are weak in their faith. Why did you seek out that video to watch? Are you trying to argue yourself out of faith in God? I do not understand.

Hello Zimm3r, ditto on that welcome. :)

Yes, can you point out exactly what concerns you on these videos? Thank you.

Thank you both for your replies this has mean in a deep fear.

[quote="JDaniel, post:2, topic:277343"]
Welcome to CAF, Zimmer. First of all, the link you post has a number of youtube vids on it. Which particular links are you talking about?

God bless,
jd

[/quote]

Haha all of of section 2 pretty much but manly 2.4 and 2.5

2.4 Links
youtube.com/watch?v=70SYwkoH_yc
youtube.com/watch?v=_Q37NhrCPNo

2.5 Links
youtube.com/watch?v=V-q8WZ1Ibso
youtube.com/watch?v=SbXJC6KsYWs

[quote="TheRealJuliane, post:3, topic:277343"]
That guy immediately sends up a red flag and creeps me out. I do not believe that he was ever a Christian and his mission is to do exactly what he has done - to sow discord in people who are weak in their faith. Why did you seek out that video to watch? Are you trying to argue yourself out of faith in God? I do not understand.

[/quote]

In the end it doesn't matter if he was or wasn't (I believe he was by his section 1). Also I don't mean to be mean but I am looking for the truth not necessarily Catholicism (though it has seemed to be the truth), Just because I am it is a troubling video I don't want to "sweep it under the rug" but instead address people's criticism and disagreements.

Why don't you write out the atheist arguments this guy makes and we'll refute them.

Don't expect us to go look at some youtube video.

Thank You for the replies

[quote="Abba, post:4, topic:277343"]
Hello Zimm3r, ditto on that welcome. :)

Yes, can you point out exactly what concerns you on these videos? Thank you.

[/quote]

See my response to JDaniel, :)

[quote="empther, post:6, topic:277343"]
Why don't you write out the atheist arguments this guy makes and we'll refute them.

Don't expect us to go look at some youtube video.

[/quote]

Ok I'll try to write up a post with them (separate one so you see this one :-) ) but also the reason I gave the link is I don't want to somehow accidently misrepresent his arguments as they are what concern me and I don't want you to waste your time one arguments that aren't actually what they are :-) But I will try :-)

[quote="Zimm3r, post:5, topic:277343"]
Thank you both for your replies this has mean in a deep fear.

Haha all of of section 2 pretty much but manly 2.4 and 2.5

2.4 Links
youtube.com/watch?v=70SYwkoH_yc
youtube.com/watch?v=_Q37NhrCPNo

2.5 Links
youtube.com/watch?v=V-q8WZ1Ibso
youtube.com/watch?v=SbXJC6KsYWs

In the end it doesn't matter if he was or wasn't (I believe he was by his section 1). Also I don't mean to be mean but I am looking for the truth not necessarily Catholicism (though it has seemed to be the truth), Just because I am it is a troubling video I don't want to "sweep it under the rug" but instead address people's criticism and disagreements.

[/quote]

But why give this guy's videos more credence than you do some other random stuff on the internet? Charismatic people can have a positive effect, or they can have a very negative effect. Easily influenced people have to be very careful to spend time with the right kind of influence.

[quote="TheRealJuliane, post:8, topic:277343"]
But why give this guy's videos more credence than you do some other random stuff on the internet? Charismatic people can have a positive effect, or they can have a very negative effect. Easily influenced people have to be very careful to spend time with the right kind of influence.

[/quote]

I give him credence because he seems genuine and it took a lot of work to make those videos (why take all that time just to troll). Even if he is trolling his objects still matter amd they are what worry me.

I looked at some of the 2nd part of his series. I will maybe finish later. But I must say that that guy's video and most of the comments are extremely condescending. They think believers are inherently lacking in brains and they can't even disguise it. He explains elementary school-level concepts with fancy graphics and diagrams as if he were teaching quantum physics. He says he is trying to reach out to believers but he is making my neck hurt from having to look up to him on his pedestal. Also, what is with the high qualitiy of his video? Did he have some help from some anti-religion group?

Please don't be manipulated by this video. In my opinion, despite the appearance of being intellectual its aim is to tug at the heartstrings. Prayer, scripture, community, and READING (or failing that, good YT videos) about the faith (Catechism, Church History, the Saints, I have heard that G.K. Chesterton is good) will help a lot.

You say view the Catholic side (I do see William Lane Craig one of my favorite philosophers).

As for the youtube comments well youtube comments are a bad shoot so I pay no attention to them they are usually trolls

What is wrong with the high quality, high quality is good he obviously cares about the topic I think he truly wants to help.

In the end though what about the things he says, any objections to that?

[quote="TheRealJuliane, post:3, topic:277343"]
That guy immediately sends up a red flag and creeps me out. I do not believe that he was ever a Christian and his mission is to do exactly what he has done - to sow discord in people who are weak in their faith. Why did you seek out that video to watch? Are you trying to argue yourself out of faith in God? I do not understand.

[/quote]

Evid3nc3 is one of the more thoughtful and reasoned critics of religion on YouTube.

Although I was never anywhere near as religious as he claims to have been, his journey to admitting his atheism closely mirrors my own. I find him quite credible in describing it, and find his conception of faith as a "network" of beliefs fascinating.

He is not trying to deconvert anyone, merely describing a personal journey of immense significance to him.

Atheists have a bunch of arguments on why they think God does not exist, BUT none have ever definitively proved that God does not exist, and they never will.

Even the famous astro physicists Card Sagan, NEil Tyson, and Steven Hawking have NOT proved that there is no God.

It is an impossibility and IF they are honest they will admit that to you. What some of them have proved (or think they have proved) is that the universe could have come into existence by natural means. In their way of thinking there is no 'need' for God. BUT that is a far cry from proving that there is no God.

These folks are very smart people BUT that does not make them right. And based on my readings, experiences and from the experiences of folks who I know and trust, I am 100% certain that they are dead wrong. I would encourage you to read about the lives of the saints, and about some of the experiences of the folks on this web site (including my own and those of my close friends).

The spiritual realm DOES exist, and God is very much a part of the spiritual realm, and the Catholic Church has it right. It takes time to build up a faith strong enough to
discount all the rubbish that is thrown out by those who do not believe. These folks have closed their minds off to the possibility of God, and they will explain away everything as delusion or hoaxes or myths. BUT there are far too many very good people, who are sincere and honest, who have experienced these things first hand for them ALL not to be true.

Even IF a large part of them were liars and trying to mislead folks, the remaining folks would be more than enough to make the existence of God and the spiritual realm true.

Scientists (and most atheists) are disputing the existence of God based on man's understanding of the physical world. BUT God is spirit, He is beyond anything that they can comprehend or observe. Let the scientists stick to this universe, God is far beyond this physical universe.

[quote="Nicko, post:12, topic:277343"]
Evid3nc3 is one of the more thoughtful and reasoned critics of religion on YouTube.

Although I was never anywhere near as religious as he claims to have been, his journey to admitting his atheism closely mirrors my own. I find him quite credible in describing it, and find his conception of faith as a "network" of beliefs fascinating.

He is not trying to deconvert anyone, merely describing a personal journey of immense significance to him.

[/quote]

Although I have not watched the whole thing yet, I find it very telling that he put the Bible in the middle of his network. If you ask me, since he was a Protestant, personal relationship w/ Christ should be at the center (add "in and through the Sacraments" if he were Catholic). Forgive me for not having seen the whole thing yet, maybe he explains this later on, I don't have time to watch the rest of part 2 tonight.

I watched 2.4 and found the rationale similar to arguments/testimonies of people who have left the Catholic Church because of what Fundamentalists "point out" to them about Catholicism "in light of what the Bible teaches." I fell prey to religious ignorance when I was in college. My seducer, however, wasn't atheism but instead the New Age movement, particularly wicca. All it takes to make a cow look like an ant is a tiny seed of doubt mixed with a lack of attention to detail.

[quote="wcknight, post:13, topic:277343"]
Atheists have a bunch of arguments on why they think God does not exist, BUT none have ever definitively proved that God does not exist, and they never will.

Even the famous astro physicists Card Sagan, NEil Tyson, and Steven Hawking have NOT proved that there is no God.

It is an impossibility and IF they are honest they will admit that to you. What some of them have proved (or think they have proved) is that the universe could have come into existence by natural means. In their way of thinking there is no 'need' for God. BUT that is a far cry from proving that there is no God.

THese folks are very smart poeple BUt that does not make them right. And based on my readings, experiences and from the experiences of folks who I know and trust, I am 100% certain that they are dead wrong. I would encourage you to read about the lives of the saints, and about some of the experiences of the folks on this web site (including my own).

The spiritual realm DOES exist, and God is very much a part of the spiritual realm, and the Catholic Church has it right. It takes time to build up a faith strong enough to
discount all the rubbish that is thrown out by those who do not believe. These folks have closed their minds off to the possibility of God, and they will explain away everything as delusion or hoaxes or myths. BUT there are far too many very good people, who are sincere and honest, who have experienced these things first hand for them ALL not to be true.

Even IF a large part of them were liars and trying to mislead folks, the remaining folks would be more than enough to make the existence of God and the spiritual realm true.

Scientists (and most atheists) are disputing the existence of God based on man's understanding of the physical world. BUT God is spirit, He is beyond anything that they can comprehend or observe. Let the scientists stick to this universe, God is far beyond this physical universe.

[/quote]

That is what I am trying however I understand the God may or may not be but no proof either way thing what I am having trouble with is he presents and wide and very well though out and reasoned defence of his beliefs so I am now asking for help rebutting it so to provide counter evidence (like a scale).

As for the close minded atheists are closed to a God and theists are closed to no god. Really not that much of a worry

Also I am looking for truth and evidence and finding none to refute his please help.

[quote="Job42, post:14, topic:277343"]
Although I have not watched the whole thing yet, I find it very telling that he put the Bible in the middle of his network. If you ask me, since he was a Protestant, personal relationship w/ Christ should be at the center (add "in and through the Sacraments" if he were Catholic). Forgive me for not having seen the whole thing yet, maybe he explains this later on, I don't have time to watch the rest of part 2 tonight.

[/quote]

Thank you I await more of your response as for the bible as the center he doesn't really explain it but I figure it should be the center as it is God's word and Christ's life.

[quote="dsfo, post:15, topic:277343"]
I watched 2.4 and found the rationale similar to arguments/testimonies of people who have left the Catholic Church because of what Fundamentalists "point out" to them about Catholicism "in light of what the Bible teaches." I fell prey to religious ignorance when I was in college. My seducer, however, wasn't atheism but instead the New Age movement, particularly wicca. All it takes to make a cow look like an ant is a tiny seed of doubt mixed with a lack of attention to detail.

[/quote]

Thanks ya but I am asking what is the logic I am missing that makes the cow look like an ant?

I've only watched part 2.4 but I can give some points on that.
1. Over all, these are only convincing if you believe that the bible is literally the word of God, not simply Divinely Inspired. Catholics believe the bible is Divinely Inspired, but written by men, so no problem there.
2. He says that the Bible can seem contradictory at times, this only works against Sola Scriptura. Of course the Bible needs interpreting, hence why Jesus left us the Catholic Church, who gave us the Bible, not the other way around.
3. The Hebrews of the Old Testament had an imperfect understanding of God, and often made Him out to be harsher than He actually is. Hence why Jesus had to come set everything straight.
4. The Old Testament , including the Torah was written down sometime during the Babylonian Exile, but existed in oral form since the actual events happened. Again, this is only a problem if you believe every single word of the Bible is literal truth, not Spiritual truth. God had to put things into terms that the ancient Hebrews could understand, he couldn't exactly start with string theory or the Higgs Boson particle to people who didn't have microscopes. Genesis may not stand up to science, but it is a metaphor for the creation of the world and Human's descent into sin, which is by far the more important point.

5. He admits not reading the bible until College; there's his problem. If he was more familiar with the bible, he'd be better at defending it. It seems odd for a protestant (I'm assuming he was protestant, if he was Catholic he was woefully misinformed about Catholic doctrine,) to be so unfamiliar with the bible, since it's their only source of Revelation.

Someone ask for me to sum up his videos so here is 2.4 the bible (may not be what he meant etc so please read them I don’t want to misrepresent him)

2.4 The Bible (Part 1)
Abraham lying about who Sarah was to Pharaoh yet when Pharaoh took Sarah as his wife HE was punished not Abraham
Why did god harden Pharaoh’s heart and not let him choose to let the jews go (tangent of mine no historical evidence shows that number of jewish slaves in egypt ever)
The trivial banalities and detail of sacrifices depending on tiny differences
Acts and Mathew show contradictions of Judas’s death one where he is remorseful and god is not there the other where he has a violent death as a view of god’s justice
2.4 The Bible (Part 2)
Creation story contradictions and wrong order of creation
The flood (Noah) never actually happened and there isn’t historical evidence (also massive amounts of species so flood didn’t wipe them out)
2 Kings 2:24
He turned around, looked at them and called down a curse on them in the name of the LORD. Then two bears came out of the woods and mauled forty-two of the youths
God killing kids because they make fun of a prophet balding sick.
Deuteronomy 20:16
*16But of the cities of these people, which the LORD thy God doth give thee for an inheritance, thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth:
*17But thou shalt utterly destroy them; namely, the Hittites, and the Amorites, the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites; as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee:
*18That they teach you not to do after all their abominations, which they have done unto their gods; so should ye sin against the LORD your God.
More killing kids sick
What kind of god does that??
Was the bible by god or made by humans
God revealed it to the authors set it apart from other books written by humans
He had been told by pastors that people tried to prove the bible wrong and converted people didn’t actually prove it wrong.
Mistakes in Bible
some mistakes of moses robert ingersoll
A History of God by Karen Armstrong
Who Wrote the New Testament?: The Making of the Christian Myth Burton L. Mack
Torah not written by moses but by many
books by many not one see img692.imageshack.us/img692/826/screenshot1km.png shows political goals and human made not inspired by god (sunday school said torah written by moses but that isn’t true). Authors combinded together to edit select reword split delete add compose compare and construct the books human thought not god’s word. How is it different from scientific papers and fiction books.
Illusion of Historical Legitimacy (by combining unverified cultural myths with verifiable historical events
All from a linguist that informed him it wasn’t mistranslation but historical manipulation that was the issue

[quote="Ladygem, post:18, topic:277343"]
I've only watched part 2.4 but I can give some points on that.
1. Over all, these are only convincing if you believe that the bible is literally the word of God, not simply Divinely Inspired. Catholics believe the bible is Divinely Inspired, but written by men, so no problem there.
2. He says that the Bible can seem contradictory at times, this only works against Sola Scriptura. Of course the Bible needs interpreting, hence why Jesus left us the Catholic Church, who gave us the Bible, not the other way around.
3. The Hebrews of the Old Testament had an imperfect understanding of God, and often made Him out to be harsher than He actually is. Hence why Jesus had to come set everything straight.
4. The Old Testament , including the Torah was written down sometime during the Babylonian Exile, but existed in oral form since the actual events happened. Again, this is only a problem if you believe every single word of the Bible is literal truth, not Spiritual truth. God had to put things into terms that the ancient Hebrews could understand, he couldn't exactly start with string theory or the Higgs Boson particle to people who didn't have microscopes. Genesis may not stand up to science, but it is a metaphor for the creation of the world and Human's descent into sin, which is by far the more important point.

5. He admits not reading the bible until College; there's his problem. If he was more familiar with the bible, he'd be better at defending it. It seems odd for a protestant (I'm assuming he was protestant, if he was Catholic he was woefully misinformed about Catholic doctrine,) to be so unfamiliar with the bible, since it's their only source of Revelation.

[/quote]

Thank you so much this is defiantly so food for though thank you :) thank you thank you thank you :-)

One other disturbing thing I find is his presentation of the history of god
youtube.com/watch?v=MlnnWbkMlbg
and
youtube.com/watch?v=yPfFx9JTQl8

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