Please read and help me answer this.. I'm weary!


#1

I am worn out now as it seems that I can’t get through to this person that the Church is the ultimate authority.

I was going to cut and paste one of the posts but decided that in order for you all to understand what’s going on, you’d need to see the whole conversation. I’m getting weary, and I do understand that sometimes people who don’t want the truth won’t accept it no matter what, but, I still want people to see that the Church is NOT a dictatorship but the method through which Jesus chose to spread his Word.

Here is the link where I am conversing with UrisStar. Please help me give a good answer to lots of these accusations. I don’t think I’m doing a very good job :frowning:

sims2community.com/showthread.php?t=7464&page=2

You will see that someone else in that thread has done a great job of explaining some things Catholic… unfortunately, they haven’t been online since I gave them “kudos” for their knowledge.


#2

You’ve done all that you can.
Why not leave the rest up to the Holy Spirit?


#3

You know what? You’re right, I’ve given her/him my final response just now… now I will pray for this person that the Holy Spirit may move her/his heart to find the truth.

I’m not very good at defending the Church or my faith, but hopefully where I am weak, the Holy Spirit will light the way for whoever reads those posts and give them the desire to investigate further.


#4

Ask him, which came first, the Church or the “Bible”.


#5

[quote=Al Masetti]Ask him, which came first, the Church or the “Bible”.
[/quote]

Actually, from my brief experience that isn’t at all what your standard Protestant cares about with regards to the Catholic Church.

The two Protestants I’ve spoken to on Catholicism have all had the same reaction “the Crusades.” How can the Pope be infallible and authorize the crusades? Really.

So I think this person’s response reminds me of that. People see what they see as evil in the Catholic Church and wonder how it can be Christ’s Church, without understanding that just because evil people have done evil things, it doesn’t invalidate the claims of the Church. So first, we have to answer their questions about this. Next we have to tell them that even were some of these things as bad as they think, that it wouldn’t invalidate the Church.

For instance, one guy talked about the pedophilia scandal. Except, well, it ain’t really a pedophilia scandal. It’s more of an epebophilia scandal. And, well, the incidences of pedophilia and epebophilia in the Church aren’t at all higher than the general prevalence in the population at large. (See my post here.) So, first, destroy that idea. Then, also see this article.

Despite headlines focusing on the priest pedophile problem in the Roman Catholic Church, most American churches being hit with child sexual-abuse allegations are Protestant, and most of the alleged abusers are not clergy or staff, but church volunteers.

These are findings from national surveys by Christian Ministry Resources (CMR), a tax and legal-advice publisher serving more than 75,000 congregations and 1,000 denominational agencies nationwide.

Dr. Shupe suggests the 70 allegations-per-week figure actually could be higher, because underreporting is common… Nearly 4 percent said they had been victims of sexual abuse by clergy. Child sexual abuse was part of that, but not broken out, he says.

James Cobble, executive director of CMR, who oversees the survey, says the data show that child sex-abuse happens broadly across all denominations– and that clergy aren’t the major offenders.

“The Catholics have gotten all the attention from the media, but this problem is even greater with the Protestant churches simply because of their far larger numbers,” he says.

Of the 350,000 churches in the US, 19,500 – 5 percent – are Roman Catholic. Catholic churches represent a slightly smaller minority of churches in the CMR surveys which aren’t scientifically random, but “representative” demographic samples of churches, Dr. Cobble explains.

And in any case, if you’re looking for news reports on abuse from other than the Catholic Church, look here for a compilation. That’s only to say that they do exist, even if the media doesn’t trumpet them. Don’t use them to bludgeon Protestants, though.

I think most people are quite shocked when they first hear someone defending the Catholic Church. I mean, based on what they’ve always heard about how 1. unbiblical 2. evil we are, they’re probably surprised anyone could even support such an institution. But, just seeing you defend the Church strongly could make them softer towards us, and that goes a long way towards good.

So what you do is, step by step, one by one, take their misconceptions away. It’s a cumulative effect, not an all at once thing.


#6

Loboto-Me
:eek: “Also God do not appoint corrupt men, man appoint corrupt men because as much as they claim to be spiritual by their fruits you shall know them.”

Didn’t Adam become corrupted? Or King’s Solemen,Saul and David? As far as “Man made”, what about the Law’s of Moses?
Ooooh, that’s different! We fall from Grace thru our own actions, ‘free will’.

Ursistar is really displaying free will aren’t they. Some of those other people need prays too. I couldn’t believe some of the responses. You did all you could do; lead them to the water…hope they’ll drink. :thumbsup:

Good Luck and keep up the fight!

Scott


#7

Oh dear! I prayed for this person this morning in Church, then I came home to find this post:

*loboto-me chile, unlike you I have not been indoctrinated and every time you insert the catholic church with scripture you lose me. *

*(I was lead to do some research, man, the catholic church have a history alright). Your church has reinvented themselves throughout the centuries and it is not good news, the deception is unbelievable. How can so many people believe a lie? The answer is: They prefer to trust in man and not in God. If you were reading your bible and seeking after God instead of letting the church and the pope do it for you would have seen. *

*The Holy Spirit did not lead them back then to insert the “catholic church” in any of the scriptures or the vatican ll council and all that other **** you keep throwing at me. If your church want to go back and insert that junk then they should do so, after all they claim all authority, but I guess the Holy Spirit is preventing them from doing so. *

*All that catholic church, only true church, lumen Gentium 16 **** have no meaning to me. If all that is truth it would have been inserted in the bible by the leading of the Holy Spirit, do I need to repeat? *

I am just one individual that study the scriptures as commanded and make them a part of my life as the Holy Spirit leads and open up my understanding, so you nor the catholic church have nothing to worry about when it comes to me. On the other hand God is not asleep nor did the Holy Spirit lost His will to complete the work He came to do and that He was given authorization from GOD to do. The Word has not lost His power and God is still on the throne with Jesus at His right hand. (Feel free to insert the catholic church or the true church or vatican ll council and all your other **** where ever it will make you and your pope/father or what ever title they go by happy).

*I have never been in a catholic church nor do I have any such desire. I say the catholic church because that is the topic. Until this thread I was unaware that your church made the claims that they do as none of that was included in scripture, I have however read the catholic bible cover to cover (scriptures only) and that was only because I was told it contained additional scriptures/history that were not in a regular bible. *

I have read the mormon’s bible, the torah, and the Qur’an. I have study from the king james, international standard but my favorite study bible is the amplified. I read and studied from the different bibles because I was told by a preacher that the king james was the only true bible. I read the catholic, mormon, torah and qur’an because I wanted to know/understand why when there is only one God that everyone claim to serve, why do we not understand that we all serve the same God; and why the division when we are all related.

What I learned was the problem was not the different books nor the difference in the people but it was the people who claimed they were given authorization of interruption. God is not dead He made sure He sent us an interrupter, the Holy Spirit, or maybe His authorization is no good? So feel free to insert whatever will make you happy.

*I did visit the orthodox church when I visited Israel and I thank God I don’t have to concern myself with all the claims made by any earthly vessel. *

And while all the history and traditions may give you something to glory about, I glory only in Jesus Christ and Him crucified. Again feel free to insert whatever the Holy Spirit forgot to put in the bible, if it makes you happy


#8

CONTINUED FROM PREVIOUS POST:

I can’t seem to keep my mouth shut! I’ve written this out as my answer. I didn’t send it out yet, in the hopes that either you will tell me to let it go, or to go ahead and send it. If I send it out, perhaps you can refine my post? If I shouldn’t send it, please help me and hold my “mouse hand”. I’m so weak!

**Who said anything about inserting or changing the bible? The Church would do no such thing as it was the one who brought the bible to the people… Why would they change it? **
You knew that I put the posts (Vatican II) to show you our beliefs… to show everyone that you tell untruths about the Church yet you try to change my post (the **** about lumens) to seem like the Church is trying to change things instead of the real reason I put it out… to prove that we do NOT judge others, to prove that we DO believe that others that are not Catholic do go to Heaven.
**I don’t understand why you’re so venomous against the Church if it has no effect on you. What are you so worried about? **
What I really don’t understand is if you belong to no church, and you put so much importance solely on the Word because you have the Holy Spirit to help you discern it, why is it that all the others that claim to know what the Bible is telling them disagree so much with each other? Why so many different interpretations? The Holy Spirit wouldn’t mislead one for the other would He? I always thought there was one truth, so who has it? Is it every single individual or could it be the people that Jesus asked to take care of it? Could it be the Church who actually put the bible together, fully, with ALL the right parts? The Church who also included the Apocryptal books that includes the Septaguint (which Jesus Himself used)?
Who exactly has the truth? This confuses me so much when people claim that they don’t need a church to guide them… that the Holy Spirit guides them… yet they can’t agree with each other on interpreting the Bible.
How can you follow God’s Word fully? Since you are your own church, when do you get the chance to do Communion? Even non-Catholics do communion at certain times of the year. You do understand that Jesus asks that “this be done in memory of me”?


#9

Luther said, "[font=comic sans ms]“We are compelled to concede to the Papists that they have the Word of GOD, that we received it from them, and that without them, we should have no knowledge of it at all.” This, more than anything else, affirms that the Catholic Church is the final authority, for who gave the world the Bible? It is the Church. So the Church has the final say on how to interpret things, since she was the one who gave the Bible.
[/font]


#10

Very intriguing word choice.

Isn’t it the Protestants that claim they were “given authorization of interruption”?

BTW, I know that this word is probably a typo. Still, very intriguing. Ironic?


#11

Note that he has said nothing up until this point.

[quote=Loboto-Me]All that catholic church, only true church, lumen Gentium 16 **** have no meaning to me. If all that is truth it would have been inserted in the bible by the leading of the Holy Spirit, do I need to repeat?
[/quote]

Demonstrably false. The Bible does not include everything.

John 20:30

30 19 Now Jesus did many other signs in the presence of (his) disciples that are not written in this book.

John 21:25

25 There are also many other things that Jesus did, but if these were to be described individually, I do not think the whole world would contain the books that would be written.

I am just one individual that study the scriptures as commanded and make them a part of my life as the Holy Spirit leads and open up my understanding, so you nor the catholic church have nothing to worry about when it comes to me.

2 Peter 3:16 warns us:

In them there are some things hard to understand that the ignorant and unstable distort to their own destruction, just as they do the other scriptures.

Which means that ignorant and unstable people can make Scripture out to mean what it doesn’t. It’s important to realize that just because you read Scripture doesn’t mean you’re interpreting it correctly.

As Proverbs 14:12 notes

12Sometimes a way seems right to a man, but the end of it leads to death!

Or Proverbs 12:15

15 The way of the fool seems right in his own eyes

How do you know you aren’t fooling yourself?You say, the Holy Spirit leads me to truth, do you not? Yet do not many Bible believing Christians all claim to use only Scripture, and yet have contradictory doctrines? Say, the Real Presence-- Lutherans believe in a form of it, while Calvinists reject it. Are they both inspired by the Spirit to truth? If this is the case, then you make the Holy Spirit a liar.

2 Peter 1:20 notes:

20 12 Know this first of all, that there is no prophecy of scripture that is a matter of personal interpretation,

Why not? For the reasons we mentioned above, personal interpretation leads to chaos. Personal interpretation can be abused by evil and ignorant people. Even the devil can quote Scripture! Matthew 4

6 and said to him, “If you are the Son of God, throw yourself down. For it is written: 'He will command his angels concerning you and ‘with their hands they will support you, lest you dash your foot against a stone.’”

This is why private interpretation is a dead end.

I have never been in a catholic church nor do I have any such desire. I say the catholic church because that is the topic. Until this thread I was unaware that your church made the claims that they do as none of that was included in scripture, I have however read the catholic bible cover to cover (scriptures only) and that was only because I was told it contained additional scriptures/history that were not in a regular bible.

The deuterocanonical books, which you consider apocrypha, were accepted by the Church, and weren’t denied for fifteen hundred years. What do you claim to know better than everyone else?

What I learned was the problem was not the different books nor the difference in the people but it was the people who claimed they were given authorization of interruption. God is not dead He made sure He sent us an interrupter, the Holy Spirit, or maybe His authorization is no good? So feel free to insert whatever will make you happy.

I’ve already addressed your specious claims of private interpretation. If you really claim that the Holy Spirit leads everyone who reads the Bible to Truth, then you make the Holy Spirit the author of contradiction, which is nonsense.

Of course His Spirit still works as our interpreter.


#12

Jesus founded a Church:

17 Jesus said to him in reply, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah. For flesh and blood 12 has not revealed this to you, but my heavenly Father. 18 And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, 13 and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it. 19 I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. 14 Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”

And he promised us that ‘the gates of hell would not prevail against it.’ What does 1 Tim 3:15 tell us about the Church?

15 But if I should be delayed, you should know how to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of truth.

He calls the Church the pillar and foundation of truth!
Remember what Jesus says about the Truth:
John 18:37

[font=Verdana]“Everyone who belongs to the truth listens to my voice.”

[/font]
And Luke 10:16 tells us:

16 Whoever listens to you listens to me.

So remember-- Jesus founded a Church which-- is the pillar and foundation of truth, against which hell can’t prevail, and he tells us that whoever belongs to truth listens to him. He also tells us that whoever listens to his apostles listens to him. And the apostles passed on their authority to the bishops, and the bishops to the next bishops-- all the time up until this present day. Our Church is apostolic. We have connections right back to the Apostles that Jesus authorized. We can even count back the line the popes that held the seat of Peter.

So who do you think the Holy Spirit chooses to interpret Scripture through? Individuals? Or the Church that he founded, the ‘pillar… of truth,’ against which hell won’t prevail.

Loboto-Me: You’ll need to pound him over the head with Scripture until he begs you to stop. This is a start. Start with this, keep going.

Plus, ask him these questions:

  1. Please prove Scripture Alone using Scripture Alone.
  2. Please assemble the canon of Scripture using Scripture Alone.

And in regards to what I was just writing about, since he probably won’t just go “oh, what was I thinking about, of course you’re right”:

  1. Jesus established a church. Don’t you think that it would be best to believe what early Christians (the early church?) believed?

#13

*loboto-me chile, unlike you I have not been indoctrinated and every time you insert the catholic church with scripture you lose me. *

I get lost on a lot of things (like the book “Paridise Lost”), so. The ablilty to follow has little to do with truth. I myself am a convert (meaning I was not “indoctrinated” as a child) but, I hung in there long enough to be able to follow the Catholic Church and to follow Gods Word.

*(I was lead to do some research, man, the catholic church have a history alright). Your church has reinvented themselves throughout the centuries and it is not good news, the deception is unbelievable. How can so many people believe a lie? The answer is: They prefer to trust in man and not in God. If you were reading your bible and seeking after God instead of letting the church and the pope do it for you would have seen. *

well, the church has reinvented itself thank God, I would have a hard time following latin. A lot of people beleive lies (like moslems, pagens, Protestants). Speaking soley for myself if I were left to read the scriptures and determine for myself I would be lost as hell, I am not a good theological thinker (as evident by my many posts that I have posted on this forums) and you seem to forget that 2 Peter 3 that the unstable mind twist scriptures to their distruction so Jesus put Peter in charge saying “You are Peter and apon this Rock I shall found my church and the Gates of Hell shall consume it”. Overtly Catholics study the word (look at Karl Keating, Bishop Sheen, Benidect XVI, all the people hear) but the Catholic Church is our safegaurd (which I myself need)(and lets not forget the mentally incopatited people who would be easy prey for anyone to lead astray).

*The Holy Spirit did not lead them back then to insert the “catholic church” in any of the scriptures or the vatican ll council and all that other **** you keep throwing at me. If your church want to go back and insert that junk then they should do so, after all they claim all authority, but I guess the Holy Spirit is preventing them from doing so. *

Yeah the Holy Spirit didn’t. It was always there. That is what the early church fathers called it and we have ever since. And to bad the Holy Spirit isn’t stopping this junk.

*All that catholic church, only true church, lumen Gentium 16 **** have no meaning to me. If all that is truth it would have been inserted in the bible by the leading of the Holy Spirit, do I need to repeat? *

It is in the Bible, “upon this rock I shall build My Church (notice singluar there) and the Gates of Hell shall not overcome it” but, I guess some people choose to ignore that.

I am just one individual that study the scriptures as commanded and make them a part of my life as the Holy Spirit leads and open up my understanding, so you nor the catholic church have nothing to worry about when it comes to me. On the other hand God is not asleep nor did the Holy Spirit lost His will to complete the work He came to do and that He was given authorization from GOD to do. The Word has not lost His power and God is still on the throne with Jesus at His right hand. (Feel free to insert the catholic church or the true church or vatican ll council and all your other **** where ever it will make you and your pope/father or what ever title they go by happy).

Yes God is not alseep, nor is the Holy Spirit lost but, you are. You ingore scripture and refuse to listen. You don’t have to worry about us but, in the state you are in we have to worry about you (and try to make sure that you end up in the right place which Jesus told us to do)


#14

Contiued from previous Post

*I have never been in a catholic church nor do I have any such desire. I say the catholic church because that is the topic. Until this thread I was unaware that your church made the claims that they do as none of that was included in scripture, I have however read the catholic bible cover to cover (scriptures only) and that was only because I was told it contained additional scriptures/history that were not in a regular bible. *

Sorry but, the KJV is diffrent from the regular bible. It has less than. catholic.com/library/Old_Testament_Canon.asp cheak this out to see what I mean.

I have read the mormon’s bible, the torah, and the Qur’an. I have study from the king james, international standard but my favorite study bible is the amplified. I read and studied from the different bibles because I was told by a preacher that the king james was the only true bible. I read the catholic, mormon, torah and qur’an because I wanted to know/understand why when there is only one God that everyone claim to serve, why do we not understand that we all serve the same God; and why the division when we are all related.

King James is the only true virson. No, it isn’t. The Germans have a correct translation and so do the sweeds, french, italians, greeks and the Catholic Church. See the above about the Old Testament Canon.

What I learned was the problem was not the different books nor the difference in the people but it was the people who claimed they were given authorization of interruption. God is not dead He made sure He sent us an interrupter, the Holy Spirit, or maybe His authorization is no good? So feel free to insert whatever will make you happy.

Yes you are correct. and He sends it to a safe gaurd. ain’t it quorky how God works how he interprets then sends it to a church which the “Gates of Hell shall not overcome it”?

*I did visit the orthodox church when I visited Israel and I thank God I don’t have to concern myself with all the claims made by any earthly vessel. *

I feel an overwheelming shwell of pity for you.

And while all the history and traditions may give you something to glory about, I glory only in Jesus Christ and Him crucified. Again feel free to insert whatever the Holy Spirit forgot to put in the bible, if it makes you happy

I don’t feel all that chairitable right now so I shall bite by keyboard but, let us end with saying that this is twisted.


#15

Sorry about that, I got caught up in the moment. I have run into a lot of those people and they really have worked my nerves. Fogive me. Those are my thoughts in what should be said, though please don’t be that caught up. people don’t ussaly go along with it.


#16

Well I can see by the replies here that my post was much much more uncharitable and not as well said as you have replied. I also noticed that I am not so good at really reading what UrisStar said or I would have seen the irony of the word “interruption” rather than “interpretation” LOL .

I think I’m going to rewrite my post… or perhaps I’ll cut and paste everything you guys mentioned! Actually, I think I’ll do a bit of both, it seems I’ve been so involved with this conversation with UrisStar that I’ve lost sight of the big picture and stopped seeing what she/he was trying to say. I was seeing the insults much more than anything else, I guess I’m feeling patronized by this person when they say that they’re happy for me (even if I do follow an inferior religion).

Thank you so very much everyone for seeing things that I could not see because I became blind to nothing but the insults inserted here and there. It sure helps to have friends here, that actually know what to look for and know what to respond to… I was losing sight of what the important issues were that needed to be responded to. Like I said, I am getting weary.

Tonight, I will pray harder for this person, then, in the morning, with the help of your replies, I will write a new one.

You know, even if this person doesn’t see the truth, the replies that you’ve put out here have helped ME see where she went wrong and have strengthened my views anyway.

Bless you all ! and Thankyou once again


#17

No problem. Good luck. I’ll send a pray up for you.


#18

Montie, thank you so much for your prayers!

I’m compiling my reply now, MUCH (mostly) cut and paste as I think things were said much more eloquently by members here than I could ever hope to on my own “pea-brain”

I have a question about a little part that I have written myself… this makes sense to me, but do you think I have the right idea?

Concerning this bible quote:

15 But if I should be delayed, you should know how to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of truth.

If people were to stand on their own religiously, without a Church (protestant or not) I doubt Jesus would have said that we should know how to behave in the household of God. This also shows that the Church is a physical household, not only a spiritual one as claimed by many lone spiritualists.

I said protestant or not because I am trying to include those who are protestant which I feel are getting on the right track (better a church where they can slowly find THE Church , and where they have some truth than no church at all)


#19

I think you should also point out to this person that if he has to resort to implied profanity he is demonstrating a lack of charity towards the lost which he’d better pray about. Yes, encourage him to pray with an open heart and mind. Ask him if he really wants to know the truth or if he only wants to think himself right. I expect you’ll get more implied foul language in response, but maybe it will get him thinking about his bad attitude, if nothing else. That is, if he’s really a Christian at all.


#20

Wonderful idea Della.


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