Poll: Protestant a good thing?


#1

Ok, let’s say a catholic isn’t devout. He goes to Mass occasionally, but has no real relationship with Christ. A protestant shows him how to be “born again” and he developes a more intimate relationship with God. Would this be a good thing?


#2

No. They would be an apostate, and thus would have no chance of salvation, no matter how ‘good’ their ‘relationship’ with Jesus (if they in fact know who Jesus really is) would be. Unless of course they repented and came back to the Church before their death. That’s not to say that God could not bring good out of bad, He does that all the time.


#3

We know God through his Church (most clearly).

So if he is in a spiritual way more closely united to the Church, good. If he actually prays more, and learns the Scriptures, good.

If this authentic faith leads him back closer to the Catholic Truth, even better.

But all the errors and distortions he is likely to learn outside of the Church, they are serious impediments to his growing in knowledge and holiness!

So it’s impossible to declare it clearly good or bad, as I see it. I voted other. I’d NEVER encourage someone to leave the Church. But that doesn’t mean that once they have left, God could not bring good out of it.


#4

I say good thing.

I was not devout, and left the Church when I got out of my parents’ grasp.

Prots and non-Catholics showed me how to actually open the Bible and learn something from it, which the RCC had never done for me before despite eight years of Catholic grade school.

Now I’m back Catholic. Some might say CC and some say I’m not “trying” hard enough to be orthodox, but I defend the Church against stupidity and unfair charges by outsiders, even while I challenge her from the inside (and suggest she take some of the outside criticism to heart at times). Also to those people, since they can read my heart, they should be able to read my mind too and tell me what number between 1 and 1000 I’m thinking of, on the first pick. :stuck_out_tongue:

The key here that made it easy to vote “yes” was the “grew in faith” part.

Personally I believe God has allowed so many other denominations to exist for reasons other than to give apologists something to do.

Alan


#5

[quote=Oren]No. They would be an apostate, and thus would have no chance of salvation, no matter how ‘good’ their ‘relationship’ with Jesus (if they in fact know who Jesus really is) would be. Unless of course they repented and came back to the Church before their death. That’s not to say that God could not bring good out of bad, He does that all the time.
[/quote]

Thats not true. As long as he did not know that the Catholic Church was Christ’s church, then he does not have full knowledge.

That said, it is a good thing.


#6

I don’t want to argue about something but ‘full knowledge’ is a lot different than invicible ignorance. I believe in the teaching of invicible ignorance, but people are too liberal with it. If you’re raised in the Catholic Church, you ain’t invicibly ignorant. You may be someone who just never sought the Truth, never listened, never paid attention at Mass etc, but that’s NOT invicible. It is way vincible. lol. And if they do apostate, they’re gonna have to take responsibility for that.


#7

How can you say you’ve grown in your spirituality and love of God if you deny Christ’s true Church? It is sad that some people do not understand their Catholic faith well enough to be on fire with love of the Lord, but leaving God’s Church is not the answer. Most Catholic churches have committees you can join and activities to engage in that can help you feel more of a sense of community if the sharing in Christ’s body and blood gets too boring for you. If there aren’t these activities in your parish, it is up to you to start them. Jesus was tortured and killed for you. Does he have to entertain you as well? Read about the lives of the saints, what inspired them to be so passionate about their faith.


#8

[quote=johnnycatholic]How can you say you’ve grown in your spirituality and love of God if you deny Christ’s true Church? It is sad that some people do not understand their Catholic faith well enough to be on fire with love of the Lord, but leaving God’s Church is not the answer.

[/quote]

Often it isn’t a matter of denying Christ’s true Church. The first time I even heard that the Catholic Church was traceable back to Peter was from a Protestant secretary, when I was 22, having gone through eight years of Catholic school and then four years of faithful Church attendance and literally did not know that. I had quit going to Mass, I knew nothing of it other than the ritual aspect of it, which were the only things we were taught those days about Catholicism in that school, by nuns.

Jesus was tortured and killed for you. Does he have to entertain you as well?

No, but this type of insinuation that the Catholic Church is “boring” and we are out looking for a jolly time by leaving the Church – coming out of apparently nowhere – helps those who are uncertain make up their minds.

If I were considering whether I belonged in the Catholic Church and people from his “true” Church talked to me with such presumption and hostility, then I’d be tempted to say you can have whatever you call “truth” because it isn’t making you into the kind of person I want to be. I remain a Catholic now despite Catholics who are presumptuous and condescending (myself excluded of course :stuck_out_tongue: ).

Alan


#9

[quote=FuzzyBunny116]Thats not true. As long as he did not know that the Catholic Church was Christ’s church, then he does not have full knowledge.

That said, it is a good thing.
[/quote]

How can a Catholic NOT know the Catholic Church is the true Church?


#10

[quote=vern humphrey]How can a Catholic NOT know the Catholic Church is the true Church?
[/quote]

depends on how poorly catechized they were or how serious they were about the Faith to begin with to continue their study of love and devotion for the Church.


#11

[quote=kimber1]depends on how poorly catechized they were or how serious they were about the Faith to begin with to continue their study of love and devotion for the Church.
[/quote]

Did this person attend mass one time? Was he confirmed?

It’s impossible to believe he didn’t KNOW about the Church.


#12

[quote=vern humphrey]How can a Catholic NOT know the Catholic Church is the true Church?
[/quote]

Scroll up to the post right above yours. #8

That’s how.

Grow up around religious authority who are presumptuous, unfair, verbally abusive, and teach nothing about the Church, and it’s easy.

That’s the problem. A lot of us cradle Catholics were taught nothing growing up, and whatever else we know is from personal discovery because 10 minutes of lame, wishy-washy sermon per week doesn’t add much to it. At least converts have to learn something before they join. Maybe we should have like a separate wing of the Church so those of us who were poorly catechized aren’t so annoying to those who were not.


#13

[quote=vern humphrey]Did this person attend mass one time? Was he confirmed?

It’s impossible to believe he didn’t KNOW about the Church.
[/quote]

It is impossible for you to believe but that’s just because you make presumptions based on your personal point of view.


#14

[quote=AlanFromWichita]Scroll up to the post right above yours. #8

That’s how.
[/quote]

The Mass is on a 3-year cycle. A person who attends mass every sunday and holy day of obligation will hear the New Testament read nearly three times. That includes Christ’s commissioning of Peter.

[quote=AlanFromWichita]Grow up around religious authority who are presumptuous, unfair, verbally abusive, and teach nothing about the Church, and it’s easy.
[/quote]

Who are these people?

[quote=AlanFromWichita]That’s the problem. A lot of us cradle Catholics were taught nothing growing up, and whatever else we know is from personal discovery because 10 minutes of lame, wishy-washy sermon per week doesn’t add much to it. At least converts have to learn something before they join. Maybe we should have like a separate wing of the Church so those of us who were poorly catechized aren’t so annoying to those who were not.
[/quote]

Huh? I learned continuously from both Catholic schools and Mass attendance. And I continue to learn.

I don’t believe it’s possible to NOT know the Church was established by Christ, with Peter as his vicar on earth – unless one deliberately refuses to learn.


#15

Depends. Does the person return to the Catholic Church or what?


#16

My grade school teachers, mostly.

Huh? I learned continuously from both Catholic schools and Mass attendance. And I continue to learn.

It is certainly possible that some Catholic schools actually did teach something in religion class other than watered-down experimental political correctness about racism and drug abuse.

Oh yeah, we heard the story about Jonah and stuff like that. We had “children’s Bibles” from which we read stories, but that’s all they were – stories.

I don’t believe it’s possible to NOT know the Church was established by Christ, with Peter as his vicar on earth – unless one deliberately refuses to learn.

If the world actually fit within the realm of what you believed possible, most of us honest truth seekers would never have gone stark-raving mad. I am here to tell you it is possible, and it isn’t only a matter of having low IQ or inability to pay attention or disinterest.

With my children, it’s a different story. They learn a lot of pretty “hard core” Catholicism in both grade school and high school. Maybe you were fortunate to be in places where they actually taught something about the Church, or about Jesus for that matter.

The pastor of the church where I grew up seldom even preached a homily, and when he did, it was usually something like, “and may God bless you all” and then on with the show. Decades later, I found out my dad nearly lost faith in the church, as he was treasurer for a few years and things didn’t add up. It turned out there were three sets of books. The one that kept track of what “actually” happened, the one they reported to the diocese, and the one they reported to the government. As you might suspect, many things, such as the maid and cook in the rectory were paid in cash right out of the collection plate money, so some things were not on any of the three sets of books.

The only reason I know this is that my dad was treasurer of the parish. He took that information to his grave, so after his death did I find out all this. He spent his whole life trying to be a good example for me and not letting what he found out turn me away from the church.

Alan


#17

[quote=AlanFromWichita]My grade school teachers, mostly.
[/quote]

Sounds to me like you’ve got some personal baggage there.

Yet, despite all you’ve said, you know the Catholic Church is the one, true Church.


#18

They may find their true home back in the Church, but any venture down the path of heresy is bad. God can make good come out despite the bad but it is much better to stay in the Church and not take a detour into heresy that you never get out of and suffer the consequences thereof.

I personally believe, with all media at our command these days-be it books, papers, internet, TV, it is pretty hard to stay ignorant of the True Faith. Just sit and watch EWTN for a while and you would start getting it. There is tons of information at our fingertips through the internet, we have the Bible online, lots of Papal Encyclicals and other writings, complete Council documents (namely Vatican II and Trent that I’ve recently ran into) etc. etc. ad naseum.

Again, I would say that it boils down to a few principle things-people think Church and Church “stuff” is “boring”, so they wouldn’t even bother to watch EWTN, look up anything on the Internet and certainly not crack a book open.

I have spoken to people who will disagree with the Church, throw out lame arguements like “Don’t it say in the Bible something against blah, blah, blah that the Church does?” who are just stubborn but will not go an learn for themselves and certainly not take what I have to say as anything resembling truth. They know they don’t like what the Church teaches on certain things, still call themselves Catholic, but could care less about actually learning what the Church ACTUALLY teaches.

I say it is their own fault, if they cared enough about the Truth they can find it. Family problems, ruler-wielding nuns, or fruity “spirt of Vatican II” theology are not the real problem-the real problem is sloth.


#19

Comrade I totally agree. Jesus said SEEK and you shall find. Not, sit around at Mass and it will miraculously fall right into your lazy brain. Jesus said KNOCK and it will be opened, not sit in front of the door staring at it like a zombie. It sounds to me like people are placing the blame on nuns or priests, and not on themselves. You talk about converts like they’re lucky they just stumbled into a pew one day. No. I for one did SEEK and I did KNOCK and guess what, I FOUND! Invicible ignorance means being trapped on a desert island your whole life, or isolated in a jungle, or a desert your whole life never hearing of Jesus’s name. Invicible ignorance does not mean your mind and soul are the desert or jungle while you are being fed Jesus your whole life through the Bible or the Eucharist, or even hearing about Him on TV.


#20

well i think alot has to do with where you live, the number of Catholics and Catholic Churches in the area, and how you’re taught to think at an early age.

i’ll say that i’m one of those “lucky converts”. not that i had anything drop into my brain but i was raised Baptist for the most part, got involved on another Christian messageboard a few years ago, had to read how Catholics were treated like 2nd class citizens and barely Christian, had to listen to my old pastor bash their faith from the pulpit and grew to have a very soft heart for what Catholics went though day in and day out.

it was this that led me to study adn learn more about what Catholics believed and i’ll say for me the deciding factor was history. i never even THOUGHT about in my Baptist past tracing my roots back to Christ. when i saw how Catholics could i felt i’d been lied to my entire life and that i had years and years to make up for in studying and gaining knowledge.

now does this and the fact that i plowed my RCIA teachers with questions mean i wasn’t poorly catechized? you better believe it! but some people depending on where they live and how strong that desire burns within them to learn just don’t ask the questions or expect that they should be taught correctly (and they should honestly) and they come out not realizing the fullness of the truth.

what we SHOULD pray for is more knowledgeable RCIA teachers to step up to the plate to teach these hungry potential converts correctly.

gets down off her soap box now :o


DISCLAIMER: The views and opinions expressed in these forums do not necessarily reflect those of Catholic Answers. For official apologetics resources please visit www.catholic.com.