[POLL] Would you rather (1) Orthodox Constantinople (only) OR (2) ALL Lutheran denominations re-unite with the Catholic Church?


#21

The way things are going, the Orthodox Patriarchate of Constantinople will probably be extinct within a few years, an outcome that the Turkish government is evidently determined to achieve. The current Patriarch, Bartholomew I, is now 78 years old and there doesn’t seem to be anyone to replace him. Under Turkish law, only a Turkish-born citizen is eligible, and the country’s only Orthodox seminary—where Bartholomew himself graduated in 1961—has been closed for many years and is evidently no closer to being allowed to reopen today than it was when Bill Clinton visited Turkey as President in1999 and appealed to the Turkish government to end its ban.


#22

I would not say this is completely true. I don’t know all the specifics regarding the Melkite attempt, so I’m not going to comment too much on this, other than post this one link from the Ruthenians, and say that it sounds like the Orthodox were only willing to accept this if the Melkites were allowed to ignore the last 14 ecumenical councils.

http://byzcath.org/index.php/33-document-library/documents-of-the-byzantine-catholic-churches/2770-the-melkite-initiative-with-the-antiochian-orthodox-church

However, there is currently a lot of talk about how the Ukrainian Catholic Church might present a way for communion with some Orthodox Churches. So we will see what happens.


#23

I have to imagine that if it comes to that, the Patriarch of Constantinople will go into exile in Greece before going extinct.


#24

At this point, nothing. Most of the modern prots barely understand the underlying theological issues of Luther and his contemporaries.


#25

Then who would become the primary see in Orthodoxy?

The reason I chose Constantinople for this thread is because it is theoretically supposed to be the focal point of Orthodoxy.


#26

Moscow. Just as she’s always wanted.


#27

How would they decide this? Is Moscow technically the next see in the Orthodox taxis (list of the most prominent patriarchates)? After all, in Orthodoxy, isn’t that why the primacy moved from Rome to Constantinople?


#28

Moscow is also at the mercy of the state. I would hope and pray that some of them would consider Rome.


#29

The Russian Orthodox hierarchy is not displaying any symptoms of acute distress at the prospect of the imminent extinction of the Patriarchate of Constantinople. Would that be a reasonable description of the present state of affairs?


#30

I’d be happy to see all Anglo-Catholics who reject the false, modernistic and diabolical teachings that have fatally infected TEC, the C of E, etc. return to Rome and join the Ordinariate, for starters.


#31

So why is there a competition between the two? Does it have to do with state influence on Russian Orthodoxy?


#32

Moscow sees herself as the Third Rome, she has the numbers, and state mandate to take up the mantle. In many ways, she already sees herself as the continuation of that legacy especially since Constantinople has been all but neutered by Turkey.


#33

Nothing at all comparable to what the Ecumenical Patriarchate has suffered at the hands of an antagonistic Muslim state. The Kremlin is perfectly happy to let the ROC have its autonomy so long as she stays useful to their not necessarily antagonistic goals.

I doubt that would be the case. For one, even if the Ecumenical Patriarchate were to go extinct that wouldn’t mean much to the greater Orthodox world. Sure, he’s a visible source of unity but his absence wouldn’t do anything to the various Orthodox patriarchates throughout the world, least of all Moscow who has the lion’s share of Orthodox adherents. Secondly, there are very real doctrinal differences between Catholics and Orthodox. I can’t imagine a significant number of them forgetting those out of expediency.


#34

Is Moscow officially “third Rome”? If the primacy is tied to imperial status (codified in ecclesiastical discipline/canons), as Orthodox believe, and not tied to Petrine succession, as Catholics believe, then who is to say Constantinople SHOULD have the primacy now? Is this because of continuation of ancient idea of the original “pentarchy”? Why shouldn’t a more influential patriarchate – like Moscow – replace Constantinople even now (not that I want it to)?

Or is that her right — until she, hypothetically, commits heresy (as Rome did, in the Orthodox view)?


#35

I would rather that all Orthodox reunite with one another, as they are not absolutely united as many think. The reunion with the universal Church has been, is being and will be worked on constantly.

Doctrinally, the Lutheran world has diverged so profoundly that reunion even within Lutheranism is basically impossible. Perhaps even worse than Baptists, their doctrines are all over the map.


#36

I’m with you.

“We are One in the Spirit! We are One in the Lord! And we pray that all unity may one day be restored. And they’ll know we are Christians by our love - by our love! Yes, they’ll know we are Christians by our love.”

I used to hear that sung a lot when I was a child - from BOTH Catholics & Protestants…Not so much now…Sad, isn’t it, that the Body of Christ has been so carved up like a Christmas turkey…


#37

Doctrinally, the Lutheran world has diverged so profoundly that reunion even within Lutheranism is basically impossible. Perhaps even worse than Baptists, their doctrines are all over the map.

More and more I see that Lutheranism was a bad option for the poll. I guess it made sense to me, since it was the “original Protestantism” or whatever.

I guess we can pretend that the largest – pick any two or three – bodies of Lutherans decided to adjust their doctrines (even women’s ordination) and come into full communion. Even if rival factions pop up afterward (as suppose may happen in the Orthodox case as well)…


#38

We can demonstrate and replicate the “reformation” by dropping a few drops of olive oil in boiling water. It immediately scatters, as unity has been forever lost. Human preference then takes each denomination/synod in locally or personally preferred directions.

Frankly, when the world is in its death throes and the horrors of Revelation are realized, there will be only one ship afloat. And that is how Christ planned it.


#39

Just curious who you would rather see in your lifetime. We hope all Christians will re-unite. But, for example, I think I would prefer seeing Constantinople reunite with the Catholic Church in my own lifetime.


#40

So then is it more about individual Christians (Protestants) on their own journey finding Rome?

I think it is possible for them, and hopefully entire groups can make this journey together (which is not unheard of!)


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