[POLL] Would you rather (1) Orthodox Constantinople (only) OR (2) ALL Lutheran denominations re-unite with the Catholic Church?


#41

Yeah, I thought this was supposed to just be an interesting thought experiment of what we would rather see.

Not a debate on the likelihood of either event happening.


#42

All unity is accomplished via the Holy Spirit, so our task is simply to offer prayer, and as much charity as we can muster to our Christian brothers and sisters.

Regarding Luther’s descendants, they would have to renounce the Augsburg Confessions, and short of world shaking catastrophe, that is simply not going to happen.


#43

Is that because of the nature of the Augsburg Confessions? Or you mean some doctrine it contains?


#44

Well, if you put it that way… :slight_smile:

That’s a toughy. I’m first inclined to say Orthodox, but honestly, I think if you won over the Protestants, that’s a bigger chunk of the fight right there, and the desire for unity over individualism would be a victory for the Body - for Christ.


#45

I voted All Lutheran!

I feel more in relation to Lutheran denominations. And it would be a bigger deal for them to unite, then Orthodox.


#46

While I cannot waste my limited lifespan studying doctrinal and theological error, the first thing to go would have to be the Pope being the antichrist. But, there are many other, foundational beliefs that would have to be repudiated. Where to begin? The denial of free will, man’s inability to do anything pleasing to God, and many, many others. As it is, we are gaining fervent Lutheran converts who sense that Luther was simply wrong in crucial areas.

I suspect that a former Lutheran will pop in here shortly and deny everything I have posted. That is fine, but a critical examination reveals that Luther’s peculiar theology reflects only his mental state and that he re-molded theology to fit his particular psychological condition.


#47

Would be interesting to have another poll regarding which group is MORE LIKELY to enter into communion with the Catholic Church (first). :thinking:


#48

Google Patriarch Bartholomew. He is the shinning light as far as unity is concerned.


#49

Is there really any contest?


#50

Objectively, I know the Orthodox are closer.

But subjectively — things like pride, arrogance, and culture get in the way. I’ve heard that many (some? of course not ALL) Orthodox dislike the Catholic Church as much as the most anti-Catholic American fundamentalists.

So I really don’t know.


#51

Still, there are so many divided Lutherans, the amount of leaders who would have to jump on board is way beyond realistic.


#52

This Lutheran denomination is seeking to join:


#53

Yep. I recall some posters (one, at least) around this board, years ago.


#54

That’s interesting. Do you recall some of the things that poster shared? Like how optimistic he or she was of such a union to occur or how well received it was by other Lutherans.


#55

After the fall of the Byzantine Empire, the Russian Empire felt they were the new heirs to the Roman Empire.

Thats why they called their Emperor a Czar, which is Caesar in Russian.

Because the Russian Emperor believed he was the rightfully successor to Julius Caesar, the Russian Orthodox believe they are the Rightful Heir to be the primer See.

Eastern Orthodoxy has always viewed that the most powerful Patriarch should be located in the city with the most powerful “Caesar.”

Where as the Catholic Church, while acknowledging that Peter went to Rome to be in the capital of the world, did not believe that the head of the Church must relocate to the most powerful city everytime it changes.


#56

I don’t, in any detail. My impression were that he was reminiscent of a certain type of Continuing Anglican (I was/am another sort of CA), that he spoke of a larger movement than I thought likely existed, and of more contact within Lutheran and RC circles than I suspected was demonstrable. But these are all merely memories of impressions. I do recall I was not greatly impressed by his apostolic lineage, as he expressed it (he referred to himself as a bishop). I do recall discussions on that, but details have gone a-glimmering.

Whatever might have happened to the movement in the 20+/- years since I saw him here, I don’t know. Somewhere, in the interim, I _think_I read that he was now a RC layman. Quoting me would not be judicious.

I wonder if I could recall his name…

Added:

I.A. Gladfelter. I didn’t see a post since 2009, but I didn’t look very hard.


#57

The schism only happened because the Patriarch of Constantinople was being edgy. The Rome - Constantinople Schism is the only reason the Eastern Orthodox Church exists. If Constantinople came back, many of the Orthodox Patriarchs, like their Antiocene, Alexandrian, and Jerusalem Patriarchates would come back. It would go from being the EOC to the Slavic Orthodox Church.


#58

So then how do the Orthodox, collectively as one, decide where/who is the Ecumenical Patriarch?


#59

If Constantinople came back, many of the Orthodox Patriarchs, like their Antiocene, Alexandrian, and Jerusalem Patriarchates would come back.

Is this because, in your opinion, Constantinople would only come back with the others, or that it is natural that the others would follow? I could imagine a situation where the others would just think C went into heresy or schism.


#60

I’m only a lay person, and for a bit of background I was baptized confirmed LCMS, went non denomination evangelical for a number of years, came back to the Lutheran faith as I felt they were more connected to church history and had the sacraments rightly administered at first ELCA and then to confessional Lutheranism(WELS) when the ELCA went too liberal(re:abortion). However, I have been studying both the RCC and the EO as much as I can because I am coming to believe Apostolic succession is important. That is my journey so far in a nutshell. I would love to see the church be one again- its a dream of mine-but it will be difficult. in practice.
Here is what I THINK might happen.
The Lutherans and Historic Reformation churches first, then the East West schism finally.
Actually, what I think COULD happen is some churches that accept the Papacy would go To Rome,
the churches that don’t accept the Papacy go East.
Like a backwards time machine.
Then finally, reunification between East and West.
So, in the near future-LCMS and Anglican and Methodist and Reformed unite with Rome.
Baptists, and Non denominational reunite With Orthodoxy.
Farther on in the future-East and West reunite.

Of course, there are issues to be resolved such besides the Bishop of Rome such as:
Monergism vs Synergism. Reformed, LCMS,ect would have issues with that. Some Baptists and Non denominationals not as much so I can see them reuniting with Orthodoxy more in that case.

Divorce/Remarriage.
Same Sex Marriage
Abortion.

and of course Justification vs Sanctification. But we already have Lutherans and Catholics trying to hammer that out.
So I think Lutherans first, before Constantinople.


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