Polygenism/Monogenism


#1

We’ve learned so much about science in the years following Pope Pius XIII and Humani Generis. It’s pretty well established that humans interbred with Neanderthals and the Denisovans, and scientists believe there was never a human bottleneck of two people (which, had there been a human bottleneck of two people, would indicate we may have descended from one human pair, Adam and Eve.)

  1. Doesn’t what we’ve learned from science contradict Human Generis and Genesis? How can we reconcile us being required to believe in monogenism in light of the above?

  2. If it’s ever scientifically established that humans did originate from a population of people rather than one couple, is the Church open to changing her views and allowing our belief in polygenism?


#2

Temporary Ban on Evolution/Atheism Threads


#3

[quote="gilliam, post:2, topic:309851"]
Temporary Ban on Evolution/Atheism Threads

[/quote]

I don't want to discuss the above topic. I was wanting information on how to reconcile monogenism with Catholicism when, last I read, science teaches that we came from a pool of people.


#4

[quote="Faith1960, post:1, topic:309851"]
We've learned so much about science in the years following Pope Pius XIII and Humani Generis. It's pretty well established that humans interbred with Neanderthals and the Denisovans,

[/quote]

It's a theory that some people have,. It certainly has not been 'established".

and scientists believe there was never a human bottleneck of two people

SOME scientists may believe that. I'm a scientist and I certainly don't believe that. Certainly there has been nothing produced to prove such a claim.

1) Doesn't what we've learned from science contradict Human Generis and Genesis?

No.

How can we reconcile us being required to believe in monogenism in light of the above?

2) If it's ever scientifically established that humans did originate from a population of people rather than one couple, is the Church open to changing her views and allowing our belief in polygenism?

a. That will never be scientifically established. Truth cannot contradict truth. The Church's doctrines are not merely "views" which can be changed to the opposite "view'.


#5

[quote="Petergee, post:4, topic:309851"]
SOME scientists may believe that. I'm a scientist and I certainly don't believe that. Certainly there has been nothing produced to prove such a claim.
No.

a. That will never be scientifically established. Truth cannot contradict truth. The Church's doctrines are not merely "views" which can be changed to the opposite "view'.

[/quote]

Can you please link me to some sites written by well respected people of science who support monotheism? I'm reqlly having a hard time with this.


#6

Do you mean monotheism or monogenism? You should have no trouble finding plenty of the former.

My point is that it is wrong to say that (by implication all) "scientists’ reject monogenism on scientific grounds. I don’t know of any scientific prooof one way or the other.

Science is not (or shouldn’t be) about what you “support”. It’s an analysis of the data to discover the truth whatever it may be.


#7

[quote="Petergee, post:6, topic:309851"]
Do you mean monotheism or monogenism? You should have no trouble finding plenty of the former.

My point is that it is wrong to say that (by implication all) "scientists' reject monogenism on scientific grounds. I don't know of any scientific prooof one way or the other.

Science is not (or shouldn't be) about what you "support". It's an analysis of the data to discover the truth whatever it may be.

[/quote]

Sorry, I meant monogenism.


#8

[quote="Faith1960, post:1, topic:309851"]
We've learned so much about science in the years following Pope Pius XIII and Humani Generis. It's pretty well established that humans interbred with Neanderthals and the Denisovans, and scientists believe there was never a human bottleneck of two people (which, had there been a human bottleneck of two people, would indicate we may have descended from one human pair, Adam and Eve.)

1) Doesn't what we've learned from science contradict Human Generis and Genesis? How can we reconcile us being required to believe in monogenism in light of the above?

2) If it's ever scientifically established that humans did originate from a population of people rather than one couple, is the Church open to changing her views and allowing our belief in polygenism?

[/quote]

First of all I don't think this is an evolutionary topic.

  1. Science does not contradict Church teaching because science has not proven that monogenism is invalid.

  2. I am not a specialist on Magesterial Teaching but Paul VI was pretty adamant that Catholics could not accept polygenism. My opinion is that this teaching is not reformable.
    It has been consistantly held since Paul VI and my opinion is correct. Paragraphs 36 and 37 of Humanis Generis are apropo. vatican.va/holy_father/pius_xii/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-xii_enc_12081950_humani-generis_en.html

From " First Things, " Msgr. Pope on polygenism. firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2010/10/19/the-problem-of-polygenism/

:thumbsup:


#9

[quote="Petergee, post:6, topic:309851"]
My point is that it is wrong to say that (by implication all) "scientists' reject monogenism on scientific grounds. I don't know of any scientific prooof one way or the other.

Science is not (or shouldn't be) about what you "support". It's an analysis of the data to discover the truth whatever it may be.

[/quote]

That's what is troubling me. From all I've read, and I've read a lot on this subject, I'm not finding anything scientifically sound to support monogenism but, instead lots of information pointing toward polygenism. :(


#10

The following Wikipedia article has references to recent scientific research on this:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_bottleneck


#11

[quote="Just_Lurking, post:10, topic:309851"]
The following Wikipedia article has references to recent scientific research on this:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_bottleneck

[/quote]

From the Wikipedia article"
<<<<<5] Research on many genes finds different coalescence points from 2 million years ago to 60,000 years ago when different genes are considered, thus disproving the existence of more recent extreme bottlenecks (i.e., a single breeding pair).[3][6]>>>>

Doesn't that reinforce sciences' belief in polygenism?


#12

The latest studies of the human genome reveal that all humans have a common ancestor from Africa. It's also interesting to note that certain marker genes later split off into three branches from the Mesopotamia region. That holds up well when compared to Adam & Eve and the 3 sons of Noah who survived the flood. I don't think the Bible is a science book, and the stories in Genesis don't have to be literal, but they can harmonize with scientific discovery.

A secular documentary "The Human family Tree" examines these discoveries
topdocumentaryfilms.com/human-family-tree/


#13

[quote="Faith1960, post:3, topic:309851"]
I don't want to discuss the above topic. I was wanting information on how to reconcile monogenism with Catholicism when, last I read, science teaches that we came from a pool of people.

[/quote]

The truth of the scientific (induction) method is that at best, all any interpreter of a science research paper can conclude is that probably Adam and Eve did not exist. The possibility of Adam and Eve exists.

This probably is based on assumptions and estimates some of which may be valid; some may not since hard data going millions years backwards is rare.

The possibility of Adam and Eve is based on the superior quality of their rational souls. It is also based on the rapid expansion of the human population.

The issue of incest between siblings would not come into play because it would take a number of generations for genes to reach the stage where the wrong combination at conception would result in human diseases. Because of the length of female years of reproduction, overlapping generations would occur immediately. Overlapping generations quickly increase the degree of relationship between the man and the woman. Therefore, in a short period of time, incest between siblings would not be needed.

Again, because of their superior intelligence, the first descendants could migrate with a better chance of surving the perils of the environment. Migration would separate groups of descendants, each developing their own characteristics as the anatomy adapted to the surroundings.

When one uses the word possibility for Adam and Eve, it signifiies a strong argument for their existence. When one looks at our own human nature and our relationship with Jesus Christ, True God and True Man, there are no doubts about Adam and Eve's existence.


#14

[quote="MisterCorduroy, post:12, topic:309851"]
The latest studies of the human genome reveal that all humans have a common ancestor from Africa. It's also interesting to note that certain marker genes later split off into three branches from the Mesopotamia region. That holds up well when compared to Adam & Eve and the 3 sons of Noah who survived the flood. I don't think the Bible is a science book, and the stories in Genesis don't have to be literal, but they can harmonize with scientific discovery.

A secular documentary "The Human family Tree" examines these discoveries
topdocumentaryfilms.com/human-family-tree/

[/quote]

But didn't the male and female live thousands of years apart?


#15

Truth occurs when science is conducted properly and Catholic doctrines are properly understood.:smiley:


#16

[quote="Faith1960, post:5, topic:309851"]
Can you please link me to some sites written by well respected people of science who support monotheism? I'm reqlly having a hard time with this.

[/quote]

For the most part, natural science cannot support monogenism because by definition, natural science is restricted to the material/physical world. When the Catholic Church uses the word monogenism, it is applied to whole human person who is body and soul.

Because science theories (no spiritual soul) intersect with Divine Revelation, (humans are called to joy eternal in the presence of our God) one has to make a choice as to which is more powerful, Divinity or natural science.


#17

[quote="grannymh, post:16, topic:309851"]
For the most part, natural science cannot support monogenism because by definition, natural science is restricted to the material/physical world. When the Catholic Church uses the word monogenism, it is applied to whole human person who is body and soul.

Because science theories (no spiritual soul) intersect with Divine Revelation, (humans are called to joy eternal in the presence of our God) one has to make a choice as to which is more powerful, Divinity or natural science.

[/quote]

I was hoping for something more helpful.


#18

[quote="Petergee, post:6, topic:309851"]
Do you mean monotheism or monogenism? You should have no trouble finding plenty of the former.

[/quote]

Faith is referring to monogenism which refers to the reality of two, sole, real human parents of humanity.

My point is that it is wrong to say that (by implication all) "scientists' reject monogenism on scientific grounds. I don't know of any scientific prooof one way or the other.

Actually, there are scientists such as Francisco Ayala whose 1995 landmark research claimed that because of current genetic diversity, it would be impossible to have a bottleneck of two parents. However, there have been following papers which use a different perspective which dispute Ayala's claim.

Science is not (or shouldn't be) about what you "support". It's an analysis of the data to discover the truth whatever it may be.

Natural science is a gift from God that has benefited society in many ways, especially in the medical arena. Scientists are sincere in their work. It is the interpreters who extrapolate a particular conclusion to an universal one which is not warranted by the evidence.


#19

[quote="Faith1960, post:1, topic:309851"]

1) Doesn't what we've learned from science contradict Human Generis and Genesis? How can we reconcile us being required to believe in monogenism in light of the above?

[/quote]

To keep the thread within bounds, please post the quote from the Catechism that requires a belief in monogenism. Let's see what is actually taught.


#20

I don’t have the quote from the Catechism, but here is something on that subject. catholic.com/tracts/adam-eve-and-evolution


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