Pope Boniface VIII Contradicts Vatican II?


#1

I am a Protestant (former Catholic) that has been talking with a friend recently. He says that Vatican II says that Protestants are viewed as Christians also that genuine Protestant believers will go to heaven. But I see other evidence that this was not the view in earlier times. Specifically it appears that Pope [size=1]Boniface VIII in his Bull, *Unam Sanctam *in 1302 contradicts this views and as it says that only in the Catholic Church is salvation. It seems very clear to me that the Pope then denied salvation to anyone outside of the Catholic Church… but after Vatican II it says that there is salvation. Note that he specifically mentions Greeks… I would assume that would refer to the schism between Greek Orthodox and the Roman Catholic Church? I am not a scholar…just started reading this stuff. I hear some Catholics like Mel Gibson hold to the view that seems clear here… that Protestants are not Christians. Others that hold to Vatican II say otherwise…please explain the contradiction.[/size]
Pope Boniface VIII in his Bull, Unam Sanctam in 1302
Urged on by our faith, we are obliged to believe and hold that there is one holy, catholic, and apostolic Church. And we firmly believe and profess that outside of her there is no salvation nor remission of sins …. Therefore, this one and single Church has one head and not two, —for had she two heads, she would be a monster,—that is, Christ and Christ’s vicar, Peter and Peter’s successor. For the Lord said unto Peter, “Feed my sheep.” “My,” he said speaking generally and not particularly, “these and those,” by which it is to be understood that **all the sheep are committed unto him. So, when the Greeks or others say that they were not committed to the care of Peter and his successors, they must confess that they are not of Christ’s sheep **, even as the Lord says in John, “There is one fold and one shepherd.” …
Furthermore, that every human creature is subject to the Roman pontiff, — this we declare, say, define, and pronounce to be altogether necessary to salvation.


#2

just as a matter of semantics. the question is flawed structurally. Since VII came after Boniface VIII, your quasi-question should be, “Vatican II Contradicts Pope Boniface VIII?” I have not put forward a response to the posting, simply a semantic critique.


#3

Is There Salvation Outside the Church? Fr. Alfred McBride

“He began to preach that the axiom of Pope Boniface VIII (1294-1303) — “Outside the Church, no salvation” — meant that formal membership in the Catholic Church was necessary for salvation. The Vatican’s Holy Office rejected his restrictive view by distinguishing between those who really belong to the Church (in re) and those who belong by desire (in voto). The desire would be explicit in those who were catechumens and implicit in those people of goodwill who would join the Church if they knew it to be the one, true Church of Christ.”


#4

frdave,

Thanks. Your correct. I guess that’s what I get for focusing on math in college and not english. : )


#5

[quote=Sarah Jane]Is There Salvation Outside the Church? Fr. Alfred McBride

“He began to preach that the axiom of Pope Boniface VIII (1294-1303) — “Outside the Church, no salvation” — meant that formal membership in the Catholic Church was necessary for salvation. The Vatican’s Holy Office rejected his restrictive view by distinguishing between those who really belong to the Church (in re) and those who belong by desire (in voto). The desire would be explicit in those who were catechumens and implicit in those people of goodwill who would join the Church if they knew it to be the one, true Church of Christ.”
[/quote]

catholicculture.org/docs/doc_view.cfm?recnum=674


#6

Sarah Jane,
I still find that hard to reconcile. Pope Boniface seems pretty clear in saying that the “greeks” referring to the Greek Orthodox Church I assume, are not of His sheep. No exceptions are given. He doesn’t say except for those that really would join the one true Roman Catholic Church if they knew that it was the correct church. I find it very difficult to reconcile the later Church position with what seems very clear in the intent of a Pope in the 1300s.

I do appreciate your responses but I just haven’t seen a good explanation. Was he not speaking from the “chair” ?


#7

Can Outsiders Be Insiders?

“Two extremely important Church documents were released during this time period. Pope Boniface VIII in 1302, facing fierce political opposition, found it necessary to state, in the strongest terms, the supremacy of the papacy over temporal rulers. It is in this light that we must interpret his famous Unam Sanctam. Therein, we read, “We declare, state and define that for every human creature it is a matter of necessity for salvation to be subject to the Roman Pontiff.” It needs to be noted that this line from Boniface’s bull is but a direct quotation from Aquinas’ Contra Errores Graecorum (Latin for “Against the Errors of the Greeks”), wherein he is simply equating subjection to the pope with membership in the Church of Christ.”

catholicculture.org/docs/doc_view.cfm?recnum=4085


#8

The Catholic Answers tract on Eastern Orthodoxy has this to say:

The New Catholic Encyclopedia says, “The consummation of the schism is generally dated from the year 1054, when this unfortunate sequence of events took place. This conclusion, however, is not correct, because in the bull composed by Humbert, only Patriarch Cerularius was excommunicated. The validity of the bull is questioned because Pope Leo IX was already dead at that time. On the other side, the Byzantine synod excommunicated only the legates and abstained from any attack on the pope or the Latin Church.”

There was no single event that marked the schism, but rather a sliding into and out of schism during a period of several centuries, punctuated with temporary reconciliations. The East’s final break with Rome did not come until the 1450s.

Indeed, newadvent.org/cathen/13535a.htm says:

The Second Council of Lyons in 1274 and again the Council of Florence in 1439 both arrived at a reunion that people hoped would close the breach for ever. Unhappily, neither reunion lasted, neither had any solid basis on the Eastern side.

If Unam Sanctam did refer to the Greek Orthodox Church (and I’m not sure that it even identified itself as such back in 1302), then it would appear that the reunion after the Second Council of Lyons lasted less than 28 years.


#9

As with nearly everything, I think you need to take things in context. Boniface was speaking to those who had left the Catholic Church. Vatican II is addressing those Protestants that are born into other faiths. Those born into other faiths have not left the Catholic Church.

Put another way, if a person truly believes and understands that the Catholic Church is necessary for salvation and chooses to leave that Church, that person is turning his or her back on the means to salvation.


#10

Here we go again…

CCC - A sure norm for teaching the faith JPII

scborromeo.org/ccc/p123a9p3.htm

Wounds to unity

817 In fact, "in this one and only Church of God from its very beginnings there arose certain rifts, which the Apostle strongly censures as damnable. But in subsequent centuries much more serious dissensions appeared and large communities became separated from full communion with the Catholic Church - for which, often enough, men of both sides were to blame."269 The ruptures that wound the unity of Christ’s Body - here we must distinguish heresy, apostasy, and schism270 - do not occur without human sin:

Where there are sins, there are also divisions, schisms, heresies, and disputes. Where there is virtue, however, there also are harmony and unity, from which arise the one heart and one soul of all believers.271

818 "However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers . . . . All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church."272
(My Bold)

To take the example of EENS, (no salvation outside the Church) the CCC is quite clear

CCC 847 - This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:
Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation

CCC 838 - The Church knows that she is joined in many ways to the baptized who are honored by the name of Christian, but do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety or have not preserved unity or communion under the successor of Peter."[322] Those “who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church.”[323]


#11

My posts above are from the CCC.

POSTOLIC CONSTITUTION
FIDEI DEPOSITUM

ON THE PUBLICATION OF THE

CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH

PREPARED FOLLOWING THE SECOND VATICAN ECUMENICAL COUNCIL

JOHN PAUL, BISHOP
SERVANT OF THE SERVANTS OF GOD
FOR EVERLASTING MEMORY

The Catechism of the Catholic Church, lastly, is offered to every individual who asks us to give an account of the hope that is in us (cf. 1 Pt 3:15) and who wants to know what the Catholic Church believes.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church, which I approved 25 June last and the publication of which I today order by virtue of my Apostolic Authority, is a statement of the Church’s faith and of catholic doctrine, attested to or illumined by Sacred Scripture, the Apostolic Tradition and the Church’s Magisterium. I declare it to be a sure norm for teaching the faith and thus a valid and legitimate instrument for ecclesial communion.

scborromeo.org/ccc/aposcons.htm


#12

The teaching (EENS) has never changed, some people at various times have decided to give it their own personal slant and some indeed, such as Fr Feeney have had to be disciplined by the Church for it.

‘And so it is with the theological slogan, extra ecclesiam nulla salus (Latin for “outside the Church, no salvation”). This is a doctrine of the Catholic Church, one that’s found in every age of Catholic history, and it’s held to by the Church’s best and most influential minds. Understood properly, its dogmatic truth is beyond question. The problem arises, however, when this slogan is given a life of its own. And so it was in the 1940s with Fr. Leonard Feeney.’

envoymagazine.com/backis…coverstory.html


#13

Protestants are in ‘a certain, though imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church’ (see below)

819 "Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth"273 are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: "the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements."274 Christ’s Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him,275 and are in themselves calls to "Catholic unity."276

Who belongs to the Catholic Church?

836 "All men are called to this catholic unity of the People of God. . . . And to it, in different ways, belong or are ordered: the Catholic faithful, others who believe in Christ, and finally all mankind, called by God’s grace to salvation."320

837 "Fully incorporated into the society of the Church are those who, possessing the Spirit of Christ, accept all the means of salvation given to the Church together with her entire organization, and who - by the bonds constituted by the profession of faith, the sacraments, ecclesiastical government, and communion - are joined in the visible structure of the Church of Christ, who rules her through the Supreme Pontiff and the bishops. Even though incorporated into the Church, one who does not however persevere in charity is not saved. He remains indeed in the bosom of the Church, but ‘in body’ not ‘in heart.’"321

838 "The Church knows that she is joined in many ways to the baptized who are honored by the name of Christian, but do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety or have not preserved unity or communion under the successor of Peter."322 Those "who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church."323 With the Orthodox Churches, this communion is so profound "that it lacks little to attain the fullness that would permit a common celebration of the Lord’s Eucharist."324


#14

forums.catholic.com/showpost.php?p=342284&postcount=11


#15

Josiah 1234, apologies for any duplication it’s just we have been through this a lot recently. If you search EENS or Boniface or No salvation outside the Church, etc, etc you will see.

Anyway, ignore the so called ‘traditionalists’ who ignore what the Pope and Bishops say. They have selected certain passages from past popes and councils and put their own spin on them.


#16

Since the Fourth Lateran Council in 1215 defined that “The universal Church of the faithful is one, outside of which no one is saved,” there have been two solemn definitions of the same doctrine, by Pope Boniface VIII in 1302 and at the Council of Florence in 1442. At the Council of Trent, which is commonly looked upon as a symbol of Catholic unwillingness to compromise, the now familiar dogma of baptism by desire was solemnly defined; and it was this Tridentine teaching that supported all subsequent recognition that actual membership in the Church is not required to reach one’s eternal destiny.

Fr John Hardon SJ

ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ315.HTM


#17

Depending on whether the question is valid, Boniface VIII should be given precedence to Vatican II.

I write that merely because in my experience, Vatican II can be too vague, and so it is necessary to rely on pre-Vatican II authorities, which (if I may be frank) tend to be anything but vague (*Unam Sanctam *is one such strongly worded example).

But that is just me.


#18

[quote=Arch Stanton]Depending on whether the question is valid, Boniface VIII should be given precedence to Vatican II.

I write that merely because in my experience, Vatican II can be too vague, and so it is necessary to rely on pre-Vatican II authorities, which (if I may be frank) tend to be anything but vague (*Unam Sanctam *is one such strongly worded example).

But that is just me.
[/quote]

It’s not a question of precedence, the CCC, prepared following VatII is an organic synthesis of Catholic doctrine

III. THE AIM AND INTENDED READERSHIP OF THE CATECHISM

11 This catechism aims at presenting an organic synthesis of the essential and fundamental contents of Catholic doctrine, as regards both faith and morals, in the light of the Second Vatican Council and the whole of the Church’s Tradition. Its principal sources are the Sacred Scriptures, the Fathers of the Church, the liturgy, and the Church’s Magisterium. It is intended to serve “as a point of reference for the catechisms or compendia that are composed in the various countries”.15

scborromeo.org/ccc/prologue.htm#III

To isolate Boniface and Vat II, they are complimentary. Some ‘trads’ have decided to reinterpret Boniface for their own ends…


#19

Fair enough.

Perhaps I should have used “prefer” instead of “precedence”.
So, I prefer pre-Vatican II related authorities.


#20

Greetings Josiah and all,

Yours is a troubling question, and Unam Sanctam is not the only example of pre V2 teachings seemingly contradicting V2. Take some of the Canons of Trent for example.

I recommend Sullivan’s book Salvation Outside the Church for some perspective and resolution?

Cordially

Ferd


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