Pope Francis denies that Islam is violent


#21

Yes, and it is a sin (or, at least, disrespect to the Islamic god) to point your feet in the direction of the qiblh (which is wherever the closest direction of the Kaaba is).


#22

I’d say that’s putting it mildly.


#23

Catholicism also has violence in its history for religious reasons. That does not make it a violent religion. I think that is the point.


#24

Actually, it does make it a violent religion.

The Albigensian Crusades were very violent, and very Catholic. Repentance from aggressive and offensive violence only becomes possible through first acknowledging that the violence is there in the first place.

Moreover, it is a false comparison to make, as if Christianity and Islam are comparable.

Mohammed was a warlord, in the mould of some OT figures like Joshua. Jesus Christ, the Way of Christianity, propopses we give unto Ceasar what is Caesar’s, and follow the Way instead of Ceasar.

It is a very different outlook. Ceasaropapism has been a Christian model to be sure, but it is very difficult to find justification in that model from Christ himself.
Islam is all about a different sort of version of Ceasaropapism, and that model follows directly from any educated reading of the biography of the Prophet of Islam.


#25

Even some Buddhists have engaged in violence recently in SE Asia.


#26

*“I believe that it’s not fair to identify Islam with violence. It’s not fair and it’s not true,” he continued, adding that he’s had a long conversation with the Grand Imam of Al-Azhar, the Cairo-based Islamic university often described as the Vatican of the Sunni world.

“I know how they think. They look for peace, encounter,” he said.*

Francis added that in the case of European youth, many have been left “with no ideals, no work, that end in the hands of drugs and alcohol, and then go over there [didn’t specify] and enlist.”

God Bless the Pope. The Pope continues to be a tremendous leader for all Catholics.


#27

When trying to determine if a religion is violent, look at who they hold up as the perfect example to be imitated. For the Catholic Faith - and its offshoots - that is Our Lord. Now look at Islam: A pedophilic warlord is viewed as the “perfect Muslim”.

Look for someone who lives as much like Our Lord as possible, and you’d find someone like Mother Teresa.

Look for someone who lives as much like Mohammed as possible, and you’d find someone like Osama bin Laden.


#28

The Pope is absolutely correct, as always. He is a man of G-d and a man of peace for the whole world.


#29

I think we need to be historically accurate and ask ourselves how many countries in the world peacefully converted to Islam.


#30

There is truth in the words of Pope Francis but I also believe many world leaders today including President Obama think that by avoiding a negative label of any kind will help prevent self prophesying disastrous situations. Damning a whole religion/group of people isn’t fair or wise.:thumbsup:

For some reason I am recalling at this moment… the quirky thing some children do when they pass a cemetery…hold their breath. Cemetery folklore: If you don’t hold your breath when you pass a cemetery you will die. Psych specialists are welcome to analyze. :wink:

Either way…all humans act out in violent ways…some more…some less. I think this is what Pope Francis is saying. Anger is a vice that anyone can fall into…religious or not.


#31

Mohammad had a young wife in Aisha. Muslims, Polytheists, Jews, as well as Christian men of the middle ages have taken young wives.

To look for a Muslim who lives as or tries to emulate Muhammad, here is one,

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humayun_Khan_(soldier

heavy.com/news/2016/07/humayun-khan-khizri-army-captain-son-speech-video-watch-democratic-national-convention-muslim-soldier-iraq-trump/

To Look for someone who lives as much like Our Lord as possible

Your example as well as St Francis of Assisi,

In the encounter between them, both Francis and the Sultan were changed. When Francis finally left to return to Italy, the Sultan showered him with many gifts and treasures. Because he had no interest in worldly wealth, Francis refused them all, except one special gift: an ivory horn used by the muezzin to call the faithful to prayer. On his return, Francis used it to call people for prayer or for preaching.

Francis also shared with his community his new and deep respect for his Moslem brothers and sisters, breaking down the cycle of enmity and misunderstanding that fueled the Crusades. Francis was especially struck by the Moslem five times daily prayer, and the practice of prostrations in worship of God; his letters urged Christians to adopt a similar practice: To make prayer a part of everyday life, in effect to remember God in everything you do, as in the Sufi zekr.

Stories of the time told about the change in the Sultan after his encounter with Francis. He placed Francis under his personal security and provided safe-conduct through Muslim states. From then on, several accounts relate that he treated Christian prisoners of war with unprecedented kindness and generosity.

Francis lives out the core of the Christian mandate: to love one’s enemies, to reach out in respect to those of other religions and cultures.

darvish.wordpress.com/2008/12/23/st-francis-meets-sultan-malik-al-kamil/


#32

I think the pope did not handle this question particularly well.

I would like to see an intelligent, well reasoned and honest conversation from the pope on this if he is going to make any comment at all.

I have deep respect for the wisdom and courageousness of Pope Benedict in addressing similar questions.

Perhaps the grace and wisdom of Pope Francis is better employed on other questions?


#33

I’m not sure about lies and mistakes but I can speak for myself here. When I’m up in an airplane I feel like canned tuna…miserable.

Yes “aboard a papal plane” makes me suspicious too.


#34

Asking an elderly pope questions like this thousands of feet in the air doesn’t seem considerate. Certainly there was great wisdom and truth in the Pope’s reply but a more habitable environment and decent time would have perhaps made me less suspicious of the situation.
…thinking of how I knew the correct time to approach my parents for advice or help. You know what I mean? I’m surprised such conversations and interviews are allowed in this manner.


#35

Aisha was 6 when he married her. Granted, we do know that marriages we sometimes contracted between a boy and a girl at this age as a means to shore up alliances between nobles in Europe. Why do I call him a pedophile? He consummated the marriage when she was 9. He was 54.

He placed himself in danger while ordering his men back from a car bomb. In contrast, look at Mohammed’s behavior at the Battle of Uhud: Mohammed wore extra armor, placed himself at the rear of his army (an army whose entire purpose was to conquer and forcibly convert people to Islam), surrounded himself with bodyguards, and - when he was surrounded and about to be overrun - promised “paradise” to those bodyguards if they would die protecting him as he made his escape.

Hard to find much more of an opposite, there.

Note that this Sultan stood out in his treatment of Christian prisoners of war. This would also be the Sultan who was fighting to push Christians out of the Holy Land. Christians who had been living there after reconquering it from an earlier Muslim army which drive them out around the same time that the Christian lands in North Africa, Mesopotamia, and Syria were conquered by Muslims.


#36

Thanks for the thread and thanks for this post, gilliam; this is by far the best link covering this story. I would much rather just read what Francis himself actually says, than read the summary someone else gives. And I agree wholehearted with everything Francis says here, too. He’s speaking sense, and he’s voicing the truth about Islam.

What strikes me as extremely bizarre is that otherwise sensible people seemed to have somehow forgotten that the West is at war with a huge part of the Muslim world. It’s as though the West has the God given right to mercilessly destroy entire Muslim nations, and if any Muslim fights back they’re entire religion is inherently evil. It’s just a stupid, blind way to view the world. Of course there are violent extremist militias lashing out at the West; the stage has been deliberately set for it, and groups like ISIS have been deliberately fostered and created by the West itself. To simply say that “Islam is violent” or “Islam is evil” is to turn a blind eye to the military aspect underpinning current events. It’s willful ignorance. How people can talk so much about the millions of refugees, while at the same time avoiding discussion of the reason they exist, is beyond me. The West murders random Muslims, “Muslims” murder random Westerners. Someone slaps you in the face, you slap them back. There’s no real mystery here, other than why it’s okay to paint “Muslims” with a broad brush, but it’s wrong to paint “Christians” with a broad brush. It’s all just part of the West’s psy-ops against Arabs and Middle Easterners in general. There are psychotic barbarian Buddhists, too, but how often do you hear “Buddhism is violent” or “Buddhism is evil?” Because we’re not at war with the Buddhist world.


#37

No… This is because the Pope is trying to protect Christians from a larger jihad. If the Pope were to flat out say Islam is dangerous or that we are in the middle of a religious war, then the number of Islamic terrorists would grow.

But this is different for governments. Governments need to recognize they are fighting Radical Islamic Extremists. But the Pope needs to distance Christianity away from the Crusade idea because today’s Muslims have a warped idea of history. They actually believe that the Crusades were unprovoked attacks against the Muslims, even thought they were not. And the many Muslims who believe that the Gulf War was a continuation of the Crusades, which it wasn’t.

So the Pope is trying to impress that we are fighting an evil terrorist organization, not a religion of over 1 billion.

Finally, it’s not the Pope’s job to wage war against the terrorists. That’s the role of the secular governments. It’s the Pope’s job to set an example of Mercy and Love with hops that Muslims will convert.

God Bless


#38

When I read such statements, I think of Pope Benedict XV, bless his soul.

He, too, was accused of being “the Boche pope” and “a German sympathizer” because he refused to rise to the bait of a simplistic “us vs. them”, “Germans are evil, we are the good guys” dichotomy.

He argued for less strenuous economic sanctions against Germany after the end of World War I.

He was ignored.

Fast forward twenty years later, and the economic and social turmoil produced by those sanctions permitted the rise of the National Socialist Party of Germany, whose history we are all familiar with.

It is a lesson we would do well to remember.

God bless Pope Francis. :thumbsup:


#39

On whose part?


#40

The liberal media, I presume. Can’t think of what else it could be referring to. :wink:


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