Pope Francis' first moves hint at break with past

I don’t believe that this incident ever actually occurred. It doesn’t sound plausible. I think out new Holy Father has far more pressing concerns to occupy his attention.

Far too much gossip being promulgated. It is becoming tiresome. There is enough " genuine " drama and gravitas to report without having to manufacture news. Just tabloid-style journalism , nothing more.

Who leaked this story? Sinead O’Conner?

I think Pope Francis is reaching out to the laity to act

Forms matter, but only if they serve Love. Pope Francis is reminding us that the language of love is prayer and charitable acts, particularly in the face of need.

We all need this kind of reminder–this rattling of our cages–to get moving in charity. I need it because of my concupiscence.

The Gospel is the most important thing but as someone just stated, physical symbols are also important. When a priest dons something like a cape or a vestment, he is putting on Christ, essentially making himself as a man disappear. All his individuality and personality are absorbed into the person of the priest. Sometimes the garb can symbolize the Kingdom of Christ to come, a looking forward to heaven. At other times, they symbolize self-renunciation in the case of a cassock. A bishop or pope’s miter symbolizes his teaching authority. It is also based off of the headdress of the Jewish high priests to tell that the Old Covenant has been fulfilled by the New. When a bishop preaches wearing his miter, he is in essence putting weight behind his words. Does it have to be a gilded golden miter, of course not. The garb can certainly be simplified.

I don’t have time right now but there are websites that explain priestly vestments and garb. Maybe someone has a link that could help you.

I dunno–before everyone gets their dander up (or down) over what was reportedly said, doesn’t it seem strange that there is no attribution as to who quoted the Pope? Usually they say “according to a senior Vatican official” or something like that. Here it reads “he is reported to have replied”. By whom??? And why is this the only time this has been mentioned in the past week?

I think it’s bogus.

I do not think we can take these unsubstantiated reports as true. I certainly don’t think we should project negivately on the Holy Father based on this sort of “reporting”. Our faith tells us to put the most positive interpretation possible on others actions. Rather than getting worried and upset we should pray for the Holy Father and for those who help him like Mnsg Marini.

Maybe it’s being taken out of context. The Holy Father has shown a sense of humor since becoming Pope. As I said before, it seems to go with the character he’s shown up until now.

You’re probably right. The thread helped me to reconcile the liturgy with humility. LOL, that’s a big deal to get straight in my head! They each have their role. The poor you will always have with you. Love your neighbor as yourself. These are not contradictions. We need the Church in its splendor denoting its holiness as bride of Christ. We ourselves need to be humble and we need to pray and act.

Popes are great teachers (understatement of the year!)

I was watching one of EWTN’s “Vatican Daily” reports and (Colleen Carroll Campbell) interviewed someone who knows Pope Francis for some time and he explained why he come out on the loggia in all white without the stole (mozzetta??)

It’s important to Pope Francis that the people of Rome understand that he is there for “them” as their bishop. The Mozzetta (sp?) is a papal garment, not a bishop’s garment. So he only put it on for the blessing. But for him, he came out to greet first 1)those who are part of his diocese then 2) as Pope.

Being Bishop of Rome is what makes him Pope. Not Pope makes him Bishop of Rome.

So even his wearing the stole during the blessing was full of reason and not just “letting go of the past or tradition” or whatever.

First warning: that article is from BBC. I don’t trust them at all.

That said, IF the Pope really said that, I’d see it almost as directing a jab at Benedict XVI… and that’s something I don’t think he’d do on the first day of his papacy. Like many other reports, it’s probably best to ignore it unless it can be verified.

My past includes Protestant–Lutheran–and Catholicism. I am just now returning home and gathering much info along the way. Interesting discussion thread and my prayer is that all events and circumspection are pointed toward Jesus. Respecting the traditions of our Church, I like the thought of “What Would Jesus Do?” I also like Our Reverend Father, Pope St. Francis, his history and his ideals. Some of our traditions, like the Ermine robe, are what separates us from our brothers and sisters in Christ because they don’t understand.

What we do know is that St.John of the Cross was thrown into prison and beaten by his fellow Carmelite monks for trying to ‘reform’ the blatant excesses that existed in his day.

What we do know is that Pope Francis gave a very stern teaching to all of us, including the clergy on March 14, 2013.

For we see them going about seeking in him their own consolations and satisfactions, loving themselves very much, but not loving him very much by seeking his bitter death and trials. I am referring to those who believe themselves his friends, not to those who live withdrawn and far away from him, people of extensive learning and high repute, and many others living elsewhere in the world, anxious about their pretensions and rank. These people, we can affirm, do not know Christ. How prosperous the end of their lives may seem, it will be in fact most bitter to them. On judgment day they will be spoken of, for they are the ones to whom we should first speak this word of God. (Acts 13:46)

St. John of the Cross, Book II, Chaper 7, The Ascent of Mt. Carmel

"When we walk without the Cross, and when we build without the Cross, and when we profess Christ without the Cross, we are not the disciples of the Lord. We are worldly, we are bishops, priests, cardinals, Popes, but not disciples of the Lord…

From the first homily of Pope Francis, March 14, 2013

It would not surprise me if Pope Francis has a few enemies, even as Jesus spoke of John the Baptist:

**What then did you go out to see? A man dressed in soft clothing? Behold, those who wear soft clothing are in kings’ houses. What then did you go out to see? A prophet? Yes, I tell you, and more than a prophet. **

Let’s not forget that Cardinal Bergoglio did not want to become Pope, but he may have been unknowingly chosen to be a reproving prophet.

The Peace of God be with you.

There may be traditions about wearing certain garments during ceremonies, but I don’t believe they are required to be made out of the finest silk, lace, and gold. Jesus ministered and simple garments. Considering the difficult economic times his choice to tone down the Churches isn’t a bad thing. It will also curb critics who hold tight to belief that the Church is greedy. Just my take on it. I can’t afford a gold 4 way medal and it’s nice to see the Pope wearing a modest silver cross.

I would just like to point out, all the garments are already made.

Oh I agree with you. They can be simple garments. Might I just want to add a small thing. Beauty in rituals and garments can also be a tool of evangelizing. I know in my personal case, they are what made the Catholic Church seem appealing to me. Of course the Eucharist was the reason I came in. The feeling of being in touch with something ancient and beautiful, it is in the Catholic blood.

However, simple can be beautiful as well. Simplifying can be great long as the essential beauty is not lost. When people begin throwing away the beautiful trappings of Catholicism just for the sake of “oh let’s be simple, let’s feel guilty for this” then it becomes a problem. I am not for a second going to guess the pope’s motives here. If he prefers simple that is fine. My original issue is more with the remark he is reported to have made.

Thank you!

Yup.

Also, anyone who has ever seen a catalog of church vestments will realize that all those ugly “simple” vestments are priced extraordinarily high. And it’s not like everything gets used and pitched the day after. I sincerely doubt that much money would be saved by eliminating anything that’s fancy.

I am familiar with one parish that simplified everything. Saved money? Nope! They did so by disposing of many of the original vestments (yes, disposing, not selling or donating) and purchasing multiple sets of new vestments. It was actually one huge waste of funds.

Just because people don’t understand something doesn’t mean it is wrong. What you don’t realize is that even if Catholics appeared 100% like Protestants, our beliefs would separate us. Shirking our Catholic identity for the sake of what others think seems a very shallow reason to do it. As a former Evangelical Protestant I can say if Catholics didn’t appear any different from Protestants I can almost guarantee you that I would have never taken notice and inquired about becoming Catholic. We are not Protestants and we will never be. We do not effectively Evangelize by acting Protestant either.

Please read this article for more:

catholicozarks.blogspot.com/2012/09/converting-protestants-secret-method.html

Personally, I would very much like to see the Pope adopt less ornate dress. Some of the trappings seen in the past look a bit…well…silly…to me. Just my view.

John

21 Solomon covered the inside of the temple with pure gold, and he extended gold chains across the front of the inner sanctuary, which was overlaid with gold. 22 So he overlaid the whole interior with gold. He also overlaid with gold the altar that belonged to the inner sanctuary.

23 For the inner sanctuary he made a pair of cherubim out of olive wood, each ten cubits high. 24 One wing of the first cherub was five cubits long, and the other wing five cubits—ten cubits from wing tip to wing tip. 25 The second cherub also measured ten cubits, for the two cherubim were identical in size and shape. 26 The height of each cherub was ten cubits. 27 He placed the cherubim inside the innermost room of the temple, with their wings spread out. The wing of one cherub touched one wall, while the wing of the other touched the other wall, and their wings touched each other in the middle of the room. 28 He overlaid the cherubim with gold.

29 On the walls all around the temple, in both the inner and outer rooms, he carved cherubim, palm trees and open flowers. 30 He also covered the floors of both the inner and outer rooms of the temple with gold.

31 For the entrance to the inner sanctuary he made doors out of olive wood that were one fifth of the width of the sanctuary. 32 And on the two olive-wood doors he carved cherubim, palm trees and open flowers, and overlaid the cherubim and palm trees with hammered gold. 33 In the same way, for the entrance to the main hall he made doorframes out of olive wood that were one fourth of the width of the hall. 34 He also made two doors out of juniper wood, each having two leaves that turned in sockets. 35 He carved cherubim, palm trees and open flowers on them and overlaid them with gold hammered evenly over the carvings.

10 When the priests withdrew from the Holy Place, the cloud filled the temple of the Lord. 11 And the priests could not perform their service because of the cloud, for the glory of the Lord filled his temple.

That’s exactly how I took it too. My first guess is that he DID say it and that the Cardinal is a good personal friend, after all, Pope Francis was just a regular Cardinal himself about a week ago, and my further guess is that he was popular, also too, there’s the fact that he’s a Jesuit, and from what I’ve read these guys are very MANLY men, they, to my mind, are the equivalent of our military, I would guess that it may be a real sacrifice for him to wear ermine, velvet and such. He probably will if enough folks give him a hard time, but I can’t see a Jesuit enjoying such finery.
I figure he has a good sense of humor. Didn’t he toast his fellow Cardinals by saying ‘may God forgive you’ ?

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