Pope Francis, Innocent until proven guilty?


#1

Pope Francis is innocent until proven guilty. We can make all the accusations we want about him.


#2

OkayYes…


#3

I don’t think things in the Church would have gotten to the state they are, if the current Pope were not tacitly supporting it. He has been well aware of the situation. That is the point why so many clergy are now fed up.

A recent sermon on this point by Fr. Robert Altier expounds well on this point.


#4

Agreed @johnjacob2004 .

But we have enough threads on this wider subject .


#5

I’m not drawing any conclusions yet, but it’s not looking good. Actions speak louder than words, or in his case: lack of action speaks louder than lack of words.


#6

There are probably close to I don’t know maybe five or six different threads on this subject.

Since the 2014-2015 Synod of the family, amoris laetitia, and Pope Francis statements about said document plus the scandals I have grown very weary of this pontiff.

In fact most these events basically led me into the traditionalist movement which has at times put me in some very spiritually unhealthy predicaments.

Since 2015 I went from being a normal diaconate parish going Catholic that was very conservative and orthodox to a staunch Divine Liturgy and
Tridentine Mass attending traditionalist Catholic.

I have gathered myself in these last couple months but I don’t think I’ll ever stop being a traditionalist.

The last 50 years has born a lot of really bad fruit and I think this is the culmination of that fruit.

I don’t think talking about it on any of these threads and debating one another or even calling for the Pope’s resignation is actually going to help anything in fact I think these threads are a complete waste of time.

I personally don’t think Pope Benedict XVI should have ever resigned.

I think he should have served the Church until he finally met his maker like a good captain going down with his ship.

Pope Francis is now the Pope and I think the same for him I think he must serve his term to the very end.

I agree that he is innocent until absolutely proven guilty and if proven guilty I think he should have to atone for those mistakes and live out his papacy in repentance even if that’s inside a prison cell.

I think instead of a hundred different threads about the same upseting topic people should just go back to posting normal questions about theological issues like the Eucharist, the Rosary or intercession of the Saints you know normal stuff.

I’m not saying ignore the problem but don’t let it consume you and spend all the time that you should be in prayer fighting with one another and falling into despair.

I do not care for the current pontiff and there are things that previous Pope’s have done and things that were done to the Church these last 50 years that I absolutely do not care for either.

I am probably never going to change my mind on those things but I concede to the fact that I should care and love the Pope even if he may have done evil things just as I am called to love my enemies and my neighbors alike.

That means despite my personal feelings that I tend to want to think that the reports are true I need to give him the benefit of the doubt as the Holy Father that he is innocent until proven guilty.


#8

That’s basically what I’m saying.

This is his cross to bear if he’s made mistakes then he needs to atone for them if not then the truth will come out and set him free.

In either case it’s his duty to see papacy to the very end.

Considering the controversy over who is the real Pope among some circles I don’t ever want to see another Pope retire.

Not just because of that reason but because I really truly think that it is a Pope’s duty to see his office to the very end of his life.


#10

Your probably right it’s just Pope’s retiring kind of weirds me out but I don’t think I’m the only Catholic that feels that way.


#12

As I understand it, since as a head of state he can’t be tried in a criminal court that applies the legal doctrine of placing the burden of proof on the prosecution, the first statement has no application. Before God he is either innocent or guilty, whether it is proven to people on this earth or not–there is no presumption before God.

We also cannot make any accusations we want. We can only make accusations we have a good faith belief are true (ie calumny is a sin) and we have a good faith belief are necessary to serve some good (ie detraction is a sin).


#13

Agreed. I miss him more with each passing year. Although I think his resignation was perhaps an example to others that he, too, is also a bishop and can resign just like others.

Personally I think he should follow Pope Benedict’s example, but overall I agree with what you are saying.


#14

Right. Bishops are called to be bishops for life. And traditionally, bishops reign for life. It was only in recent decades, I believe under Pope St John Paul II (or maybe Blessed Paul VI?) that bishops have been asked to submit their resignation at 75. The Pope is a bishop. A special bishop, but not something more or different than a bishop.


#15

Vatican II “earnestly requested” that bishops less capable of fulfilling their duties due to age (it did not provide a particular age) offer their resignation on their own accord or “upon the invitation of the competent authority.” (Christus Dominus 21). Paul VI’s implementation of this was to mandate they offer their resignation at 75. He later laid down similar mandates on curial officials and Cardinals, as well as barring those 80 or over from conclaves.

The reasoning Vatican II gave was that the office of bishop was “so important and weighty.” Given that reasoning, it seems this earnest request would apply even more so to the bishop of Rome.


#16

I have a question regarding the other bishops and priests who xovered up.

Many people say they should resign. But I don’t know, I feel sexual abuse cover up is too egregious for a person to simply resign. I mean shouls not the enablers be in jail? If it were an ordinary individual who covered up and was found out, I would think he wouls be behind bars by now.


#17

It is my very limited (and possibly wrong) understanding that a statute of limitations prevents it in most of these cases.


#18

If one does not like the current Pope, one can always pray to God to change him, either by giving him a burning-bush experience that sets him on the right track (if, indeed, he is currently on the wrong track), or by removing him and putting someone else in his place.

D


#20

Yes, they remain bishops, ontologically speaking, and generally continue to minister as health allows. What I meant is that they abdicate their seat as ordinary of a particular diocese. Likewise the Pope remains a bishop if he abdicates, but ceases to be the Bishop of Rome with the special primacy that seat entails.


#21

It can’t possibly be just the current pope, though. These are cases going back decades, and the prelates involved in the cover-up have been in office since then. If Pope Francis knew, he should go down. But this isn’t some unique problem with Francis’ papacy. Pope Benedict, Pope St. John Paul II, and their predecessors are just as likely to have known and done nothing. Pope Francis has the advantage of presiding over a Church in which there are tighter controls on this sort of thing happening from now on; the main issue now seems to be that most of the bishops and cardinals (and yes, possibly even popes) who knew and didn’t act have not been exposed and punished.


#22

This is mostly speculation as opposed to facts.


#23

“Innocent until proven guilty” is a judicial concept. Catholics who are losing faith in Francis aren’t “trying” him or performing any judicial action. They are disappointed, and they want to be proven wrong in their suspicions. If Francis remains silent, they will not be proven wrong.


#24

In a court of law. Which if there is enough evidence against him, extradite him and place him on trial. Would you expect anything less of a cop, a fireman, a Politican. a teacher?


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