Pope Pius X, modernism, and traditionalism

A very traditonal Pope. Is it true that he died of heartbreak because modernism was creeping into the church? Also, I heard that some really traditional Catholics say that since Pius X, there have been no legitimate popes, that he was the last one. Also, I’ve heard that it is said amongst some traditionalists that V2 is not valid, corrupt. what are your opinions on this? As a traditionalist, do you think there have
been no legitimate popes since Pius X ? As a modernist, what do you think of traditional Catholicism?

If this thread is in the wrong place, sorry! Please, move it to the correct location! My apologies!

[quote=Marilena]A very traditonal Pope. Is it true that he died of heartbreak because modernism was creeping into the church? Also, I heard that some really traditional Catholics say that since Pius X, there have been no legitimate popes, that he was the last one. Also, I’ve heard that it is said amongst some traditionalists that V2 is not valid, corrupt. what are your opinions on this? As a traditionalist, do you think there have
been no legitimate popes since Pius X ? As a modernist, what do you think of traditional Catholicism?

If this thread is in the wrong place, sorry! Please, move it to the correct location! My apologies!
[/quote]

I’d stay away from these “traditionalists” if I were you. One who says there have been no legitimate popes since Pius X are called sedevacantists. They believe the Chair of Peter is empty which contradicts Christ’s promise to our Church. A true “traditionalist”(in the sense the word is used on these boards) does not believe this.

See here to learn about it:
matt1618.freeyellow.com/sedevacantism.html

I only wrote this to see what opinions others have. I also only wrote what I heard, not what I believe. I have 3 members of my family who
are traditional Catholics, and go to SSPX Mass. Does this mean i believe it? no. I only want opnions, that is all.

[quote=Marilena]I only wrote this to see what opinions others have. I also only wrote what I heard, not what I believe. I have 3 members of my family who
are traditional Catholics, and go to SSPX Mass. Does this mean i believe it? no. I only want opnions, that is all.
[/quote]

Marilena,

I don’t think I accused you of anything. You asked my opinion and I gave it. These views are dangerous to souls. Sorry if you thought I was implying that you held these beliefs.

[quote=Marilena]A very traditonal Pope. Is it true that he died of heartbreak because modernism was creeping into the church? Also, I heard that some really traditional Catholics say that since Pius X, there have been no legitimate popes, that he was the last one. …
[/quote]

You’d be hard pressed to find ANY trad catholic that held such a belief.
At best the sede’s hold Pius XII as the last legit pope…1958…coming 48 yrs.
St.Pius X is their “hero” in the fight against what they (and he) see as the greatest heresy…Modernism where Yes is no and no is yes, and maybe is the only truth.
“It is one of the cleverest devices of the Modernists … to present their doctrines without order and systematic arrangement, in a scattered and disjointed manner, so as to make it appear as if their minds were in doubt or hesitation, whereas in reality they are quite fixed and steadfast.” –Pope St. Pius X, Encyclical Pascendi, par. 4, 1910.

[quote=bear06]Marilena,

I don’t think I accused you of anything. You asked my opinion and I gave it. These views are dangerous to souls. Sorry if you thought I was implying that you held these beliefs.
[/quote]

Maybe then the mods should close this post. Thanks all.

[quote=Marilena]A very traditonal Pope. Is it true that he died of heartbreak because modernism was creeping into the church?
[/quote]

Two points:

[list]
*]Dying because there are problems would be ridiculous - most people have to live through them, not escape by dying
*]He was 79 - which is pretty good age by any standard; especially for a man dying in 1914. I’ve heard that the War hastened his death, but have no idea whether this is so.
[/list]

Also, I heard that some really traditional Catholics say that since Pius X, there have been no legitimate popes, that he was the last one.

He would be the first person to excommunicate them for that.

Also, I’ve heard that it is said amongst some traditionalists that V2 is not valid, corrupt. what are your opinions on this?

It is dangerously close to heresy to say that; not quite heresy, but too close for comfort. Vatican II is a wholly valid Ecumenical Council of the Church -

[list]
*]in being called and re-called by Popes
*]in representing the entire Catholic Church
*]in its work, which was religious
*]…I forget the rest … :slight_smile:
[/list]Apart from anything else, it restored the lopsidedness which came about from the interruption of Vatican I, by supplementing and completing it, in very different circumstances. ##

As a traditionalist, do you think there have been no legitimate popes since Pius X ? As a modernist, what do you think of traditional Catholicism

This Catholic finds any names but “Christian” & “Catholic” abhorrent. Factions and factionalism are carnal, and have no place whatever in the Church of God.

As to the question: I think that “traditionalism” is far from being traditional, because it seizes upon the last couple of centuries of Western Catholicism, but ignores most of the rest of the Church, both in time and space. It’s too Western, European, Latin, and Roman to be rightly called traditional. A really traditional Catholicism would include the entire Church - which would mean an end to the defensiveness that seems to go with being a “traditionalist”. Even as it is, traditionalism ignores most of what went on in the Church in the last two centuries. It takes a tiny sliver of Catholicism, and tries to insist that that, and only that, is really Catholic. This is the equivalent of trying to claim that St.Thomas Aquinas or St. Augustine embodies the whole tradition of Catholic theology.

The present Pope is as valid as ever Pius X was. He may be different from him; and he is - but that is not in itself any condemnation at all. Difference == deterioration. ##

If this thread is in the wrong place, sorry! Please, move it to the correct location! My apologies!

"It is dangerously close to heresy to say that; not quite heresy, "

Iam not making a heretical statement! I only stated what I heard!
Did I say that it wasn’t valid at any time? NO. :mad: I only stated what I HEARD!

I don’t want this post becoming argumentative between members.

[quote=Marilena]"It is dangerously close to heresy to say that; not quite heresy, "

Iam not making a heretical statement! I only stated what I heard!
Did I say that it wasn’t valid at any time? NO. :mad: I only stated what I HEARD!

I don’t want this post becoming argumentative between members.
[/quote]

Hmm…

Gottle of Geer is saying to defend that position would be heretical, he never once said you were.

Gottle of Geer: if I misinterpreted what you said, then Iam sorry.

[quote=Marilena]"It is dangerously close to heresy to say that; not quite heresy, "

Iam not making a heretical statement! I only stated what I heard!
Did I say that it wasn’t valid at any time? NO. :mad: I only stated what I HEARD!

I don’t want this post becoming argumentative between members.
[/quote]

I know you weren’t - which is why I was talking about the theology of that position, and not about you.

[quote=Marilena]Gottle of Geer: if I misinterpreted what you said, then Iam sorry.
[/quote]

Don’t worry about it :smiley: - I’m sorry for failing to make my position clear :slight_smile:

[quote=Marilena]I only wrote this to see what opinions others have. I also only wrote what I heard, not what I believe. I have 3 members of my family who
are traditional Catholics, and go to SSPX Mass. Does this mean i believe it? no. I only want opnions, that is all.
[/quote]

Don’t your family members realise SSPC is a schismatic group?

John Paul II, Ecclesia Dei 1988
c)In the present circumstances I wish especially to make an appeal both solemn and heartfelt, paternal and fraternal, to all those who until now have been linked in various ways to the movement of Archbishop Lefebvre, that they may fulfil the grave duty of remaining united to the Vicar of Christ in the unity of the Catholic Church, and of ceasing their support in any way for that movement. Everyone should be aware that formal adherence to the schism is a grave offence against God and carries the penalty of excommunication decreed by the Church’s law.

Marilena, I hope you are not tempted to go down the SSPX path. It can be very attractive to those who hold traditional views, but they are in schism. Please pray for your family and lead them by example back to the Church.

Maybe one day the schism will be lifted, but until then we must stay away from SSPX.

A good book to give your family members would be “More Catholic than the Pope” catholicfreeshipping.com/Products/cfs_mocathpoinlo.html

IMHO SSPX has good intentions, but their methods are against the only church that Christ gave to us. They’ve gone down the path that Luther, Calivin, and host of others traveled thinking they were saving the Catholic Church from itself. That’s not their job. We have the Holy Spirit to protect the Church, thank you very much. How can they possibly think they know better than HIm?

I understand where they are coming from in some regards. I get downright peeved when I see a priest playing fast and loose with the rubrics, but as part of the lay apostolate, my obligation is to approach that offending priest and charitably let him know he might be in error. If he won’t listen, I can take it to the Vicar General or the Bishop. At no point do I have the right to run off and make my own little church.

TNT wrote:

You’d be hard pressed to find ANY trad catholic that held such a belief.

One of my best of six friends (all of whom are current adherents to the SSPX schism) is a Dutch-born man, now close to his eighties; and now with early dimentia. HE is one of a few “trads” that I know who believe that Pope St Pius X was the last legitimate pope.

He loosely bases this on a belief that post Pius X popes WERE tinged with modernism AND a dimunition of Marian devotion. This “marian” thing has almost driven him to a point of an unbalanced mind in this and other directions.

I had mid-day dinner with him and my other SSPX friends today to celebrate another friend’s 75th birthday. He, by the way is quite a rabid anti_Jew and anti_Vatican II, etc. extremist. But, I love them all and pray for their return to Holy Mother Church.

[quote=paramedicgirl]Marilena, I hope you are not tempted to go down the SSPX path. It can be very attractive to those who hold traditional views, but they are in schism. Please pray for your family and lead them by example back to the Church.

Maybe one day the schism will be lifted, but until then we must stay away from SSPX.

A good book to give your family members would be “More Catholic than the Pope” catholicfreeshipping.com/Products/cfs_mocathpoinlo.html
[/quote]

No, Iam not tempted to go down that path. I only raised the issue
because of what my mom has told me, and my brother. I worry that they are so caught up in this SSPX thing that they can’t see
the real truth. I would love to see my mom out of the SSPX, and do pray for her, but I think she is to caught up in it, as well as my older brother.May I ask another question of you paramedicgirl?
My younger sister is wanting to baptize her baby by a SSPX priest. she had her first baby baptized by the same priest, are these baptisms valid, and recognized by the Church? I don’t understand how 3 of my family members can be so swayed?
another thing that bugs me, why is it that they don’t like JP2?
They are neutral so far towards Benedict XVI, but why do they
seem to not like JP2? JP2 was a very great man, and he did many great things, but to flat out say they don’t like him, ext I don’t get that! I don’t want to hear negative things being said about any pope, especially JP2! He drew me back to the Church!
He has drawn millions back to the Church! what has he done that
makes some tradtional Catholics shiver? I don’t get their attitudes!
Maybe Iam dwelling to much on it, but to say negative things about JP2 is simply to me, not right. His life, and his papacy drew me back to the Church, as well as my husband, my husband was
drawn to Catholicism because of JP2! oh, he’s a modernist, ext ext ext. I’ve heard enough of it. All popes are legitimate. to think otherwise, is it not heresy? God bless you all :slight_smile:

paramedicgirl:

Do you have a copy of that book?

Hi.
Yes, SSPX baptisms are valid.
ALL baptisms, regardless of WHO does the baptizing, are valid if water is poured over the person’s head and the baptizer says,
“I baptize you in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit,” while the water is being poured.
Love,
Jaypeeto3

[quote=Marilena]No, Iam not tempted to go down that path. I only raised the issue
because of what my mom has told me, and my brother. I worry that they are so caught up in this SSPX thing that they can’t see
the real truth. I would love to see my mom out of the SSPX, and do pray for her, but I think she is to caught up in it, as well as my older brother.May I ask another question of you paramedicgirl?
My younger sister is wanting to baptize her baby by a SSPX priest. she had her first baby baptized by the same priest, are these baptisms valid, and recognized by the Church? I don’t understand how 3 of my family members can be so swayed?
another thing that bugs me, why is it that they don’t like JP2?
They are neutral so far towards Benedict XVI, but why do they
seem to not like JP2? JP2 was a very great man, and he did many great things, but to flat out say they don’t like him, ext I don’t get that! I don’t want to hear negative things being said about any pope, especially JP2! He drew me back to the Church!
He has drawn millions back to the Church! what has he done that
makes some tradtional Catholics shiver? I don’t get their attitudes!
Maybe Iam dwelling to much on it, but to say negative things about JP2 is simply to me, not right. His life, and his papacy drew me back to the Church, as well as my husband, my husband was
drawn to Catholicism because of JP2! oh, he’s a modernist, ext ext ext. I’ve heard enough of it. All popes are legitimate. to think otherwise, is it not heresy? God bless you all :slight_smile:
[/quote]

Yes, their baptisms are valid. Their confessions and marriages are not because their priests do not have faculties from the local bishops.

SSPXers (at least many of them) will tell you that they believe that the Pope is a legitimate pope but that they are free to question/condemn him for his actions because he is contradicting tradition.

JPII was a wonderful pope and so is Pope Benedict but I fear, unless he gives a blanket indult of restores the Tridentine as the only Mass of the Roman rite that the SSPXers will be down on him too soon.

Here’s some good sites if you’re planning to debate the issue with your family.

jloughnan.tripod.com/index.htm
tcrnews2.com/
ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ345.HTM
matt1618.freeyellow.com/TRADIT.html
sspx.agenda.tripod.com/
rerum-novarum.blogspot.com/ scroll down to find this subject

Some of these folks above were in the SSPX at one time and are now great defenders of the Faith.

Good luck!

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