Popes Calling for a New World Order?


#1

Hello all, this is my first post in Catholic Answers forum. Let me give some background on myself before I continue.
I was raised in an evangelical Pentecostal family, my father was the preacher...so I'm a "preacher's son" :). He was leaning toward Catholicism later in his ministry, and after being involved in deliverance's from evil spirits he was ordained a Roman Catholic exorcist in Central Louisiana by Bishop Sam Jacobs. He still has the Roman Rite of Exorcism (the Latin). I remember him travelling all over the State (Louisiana) to battle the demons that possessed various types of people (Bible-believing Protestants, Non-denominational Christians, Atheists, Catholics, etc .. Satan apparently doesn't discriminate!)

I just recently came back to the Church this past year (praise Jesus!) ... but I am struggling with Papal authority. Maybe it's my inherit distrust for authority--or any top-down structure. The more I research into the construction of a New World Order, I always run into various Popes calling for a New World Order. We know that the coming world order is a socialist "order" devoid of Christianity.

I do submit to the authority of the Church, but I am very wary of what comes out of the Vatican now-a-days. Benedict has appointed several ultra-conservative cardinals, and it is my belief that he is preparing the Church for the next Pope (St. Malachy's prophecy of Petrus Romanus).

My question is why did Pope John Paul II call for a New World Order on several occasions? When I've asked my father about what he thinks about that, he says that the Pope was referring to a "different" world order ... but that still doesn't make much sense to me. Benedict called for a "new social and financial order" (Caritas in Veritate [Charity in Truth]). We know that a world government system must usurp the Church in order to be truly "world government/world religion".... with the Catholic Church being the "biggest game in town."

It is my belief that the "great falling away" will be another schism in the Church ... but that's my speculation of course. Even if the institution of the Church goes the wrong direction, the doctrine of the Apostles and the teachings will remain. The gates of Hell will not prevail!

My question is why are our Popes calling for and supporting a new socialist world government? and Please don't respond with "the New World Order is conspiracy-theory" ... it's out in the open and in our faces -- if you haven't heard of it, you haven't been paying attention.


#2

Welcome! Try this article:
Editorial: Pope’s New Encyclical Speaks Against, not for One-World Government and New World Order


#3

I admit that I find JPII (and Paul VI at a UN meeting) calling for a New World Order perplexing.


#4

lifesitenews.com/news/archive/ldn/2009/jul/09070812


#5

Thank you all, I am reading :)


#6

St. Malachy's alleged prophecies are forgeries put on paper many centuries after that saint had died it should be noted.


#7

[quote="codephined, post:5, topic:289798"]
Thank you all, I am reading :)

[/quote]

Also do a search sometime for "Pope" and the concept of "subsidiarity".


#8

The cliché “New World Order” typically means a totalitarian one-world government. This is not what the Popes have called for and why the piece cited by Bookcat is important to read.

The “New order” is that the governments and leaders of the world order themselves on the teachings of Christ.

A world which is ordered on the teachings of Christ, where the true Gospel as taught by the Church would be the guide for governments and leaders, would truly be new.

-Tim-


#9

[quote="TimothyH, post:8, topic:289798"]
The cliché "New World Order" typically means a totalitarian one-world government. This is not what the Popes have called for and why the piece cited by Bookcat is important to read.

The "New order" is that the governments and leaders of the world order themselves on the teachings of Christ.

A world which is ordered on the teachings of Christ, where the true Gospel as taught by the Church would be the guide for governments and leaders, would truly be new.

-Tim-

[/quote]

Not really. A NWO is an order devoid of Logos and Christianity. We had as close as could get to countries being ordered to Church teaching throughout Europe. That is why Pope Benedict has stated Europe needs a RETURN to it's roots.


#10
  1. I recommend that you don't read commentaries on papal speeches and encyclicals, but rather read the papal speeches and commentaries themselves, with your own eyes and your own mind.

  2. Despite what I just said, I'll give you a little of my own "commentary" right now. From what I can tell, the Catholic Church DOES call for a significant degree of united global governance. As I understand it, the Catholic Church's view is that when too much of the world's economic system is controlled by selfish, nationalistic interests of a few rich nations, this is bad for the poorer peoples of the world. They see this as leading to wars and to grotesque economic balances.

  3. In the USA, especially among political conservatives, there a huge hatred of anything like global governance. They even want to eliminate the U.N., or have the U.S. withdraw from it. But so what? Political conservatives in the U.S. dissent from many other points of Catholic Social Doctrine. For a list of what political conservatives dissent on, see this brief essay by a Catholic professor at the Franciscan University of Steubenville: skrason.wordpress.com/2012/06/01/the-conservative-weakness-and-the-solution-catholic-social-teaching/

  4. I believe we are all called to be 100% Catholic and that we should not let politicos of the Right or the Left cause us to have a truncated form of Catholicism.


#11

I am all for a one world government. Total union and submission to Rome. With the Pope leading the entire world we would have as close to a utopia as we could ever attain on our own (until Christ returns). No country is fit to lead who keeps money as their number one priority. All the "major" powers have proven they are corrupt and incapable of leading their own people let alone the whole world.


#12

That was very clarifying, thanks. I'm a very "Constitutionalist"-type guy so anything that would give sovereignty to a foreign power, whether it's the Saxe-Coberg & Gotha "British" Royal family (German/Transylvanian descent ... yeah, I know, crazy right?) or the "banking dictatorship" run by the central banks (technocrats in their own words) that we see happening in the EU. Riding the back of the derivative scam will put us in a similar situation.

I agree with Benedict on several points :

In order not to produce a dangerous universal power of a tyrannical nature, the governance of globalization must be marked by subsidiarity.

but this really hit home with me:

"There is reason to suspect that development aid is sometimes linked to specific health-care policies which de facto involve the imposition of strong birth control measures,"

He couldn't be more right about the use of force with birth control, sterilization, and abortions in a socialist government. The IMF requires third world nations to vaccinate their population, which usually ends up in sterilization or worse. The UN periodically has meetings (Rio Summit) where they talk about using the hysteria of environmental crisis as a method to create treaties for the purpose of population control. Taxing us for the air we exhale, because as we all know, our breath and livestock's flatulent is causing the earth to heat up (gee, it can't be the sun, can it?). In Australia, the government recently stated that any business criticizing the new carbon taxes, a tax on simply being alive, will be fined 1.1 million....

This is the kind of global gov't the UN represents, so when the Pope references world government...it gets my attention! The UN is obviously not interested in the exousia that Paul mentioned in Romans 13. The greek exousia means power; authority; power to do as one pleases; liberty, I believe Paul was telling us in Romans 13:
"Let every soul be subject unto the higher liberty. For there is no liberty but of God: the liberties that be are ordained of God. ..." (I think that's pretty damn beautiful) and as John Adams said, "Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other."

So we must keep our morality and religion in order to remain a free Republic ... but i'm afraid we're going in the complete opposite direction :( The "moral fabric" of a global socialist system is diametrically opposed to what our faith requires...

@jam070406 : What do you suspect JP II's reason was for that speech before the UN? That's bothered me too


#13

@Marco: Thanks, I’ll do that

@Bartolome Casas: I agree with ya, I should have read it “from the horse’s mouth” before posting, although I wasn’t solely focusing on Benedict. Like jam said earlier in the thread it perplexes me as well.
I’ll check out that essay you posted, too. I just think that any form of global governance is a terrible idea for obvious reasons. It consolidates power under one roof, even if it were given to the best moral authority on earth, could and Would be taken advantage of later. I say leave that sort of government for when Jesus returns :slight_smile:

@Tim: That seems to be the consensus from different priests I’ve talked to on the subject, that they were calling for a new order under Christ … but we know that won’t happen until Jesus himself returns. I’ve also wondered if it might have to do with trying to force fulfillment of prophecy by supporting the creation of a world system.

@JharekCarnelian: I’ve heard that too… when was it allegedly forged? It almost seems that conclave has been picking vicars to coincide with the “prophecy”

@SaintPatrick333: Sounds good in theory :slight_smile: it’s obvious that Christianity allowed the idea of liberty to blossom and carried it through the ages. I still have trouble with the idea of top-down governance


#14

Venerable Pope Pius XII supported the idea of humanity forming a world federation of democratic states. The type of world federalism described by Pope Pius would appear to be the Catholic Church’s broad aim in speaking of “global governance”; not a unitary world state or a tyrannical world government but yes a World Federation endowed with genuine authority, maintaining the peace, equality and autonomy of the member states and founded upon a healthy, Catholic/Christian ethos and governed by Christian ethics yet having true separation between Church and State:

“…Your movement, Gentlemen, has the task of creating an effective political organization of the world. There is nothing more in keeping with the traditional doctrines of the Church, or better adapted to her teachings on the rightful or unjust war, especially in the present world situation. An organization of this nature must, therefore, be set up…You are of the opinion that the political world organization needs to take a federal shape in order to be effective. If you mean by this that it needs to be released from mechanical leveling down then you thereby are as well in accordance with the principles of social and political life as they are established and advocated by the Church…[The future political world organization] will only exercise effective authority to the degree in which it preserves and fosters the independent existence of a healthy human community whose members jointly participate in advancing the welfare of the whole of humanity…You have the courage to give yourself to this cause. We congratulate you. We would express to you Our wishes for your entire success and with all Our heart We will pray to God to grant you His wisdom and help in the performance of your task…The spirit of federalism, the future organization of the world in political respect, will play an important role. In the same measure it safeguards the natural and healthy life of human communities in bringing about the greatest welfare of all mankind. I wish you great success in your labor and God give you light and assistance…”

***- Pope Pius XII, to the members of the Congress of World Federalists, held in Rome, April, 1951 ***

Yes you read that correct, Pope Pius XII supported the idea of a World Federation of Nations…

Back in the 1950s this was commented on by many newspapers, for example these two in the American press:

news.google.com/newspapers?id=MAgkAAAAIBAJ&sjid=jyMEAAAAIBAJ&pg=4720,3461671&dq=pope+pius+world+federalism&hl=en

news.google.com/newspapers?id=elMVAAAAIBAJ&sjid=1uUDAAAAIBAJ&pg=2054,2600221&dq=pope+pius+world+federalism&hl=en

Part of the first link reads:

"…WORLD FEDERALISM TO END ARMS RACE

Pope Pius Friday urged the creation of a world political organization to put an end to an armament race that will leave people “ruined and exhausted”. The Pope addressed 25 delegates from 11 countries, gathered here for the fourth congress of the World Movement for World Federal Government. The objectives of this organization, the Pope said, “conform with the traditional doctrine of the Catholic Church”.

A world political organization, the pope said, must be of a federal form to take effect…"

The other newspaper reads in part:

"…POPE PIUS URGES ONE GOVERNMENT

Reuters - Pope Pius XII today told world federalists from eight countries that world government was “more than ever neccessary”. Suggesting that present sovereign governments were too feeble to handle the international crisis, he appealed for a world authority…His audience was drawn from men and women from 22 countries…"

"…An essential point in any future international arrangement would be the formation of an organ for the maintenance of peace, of an organ invested by common consent with supreme power to whose office it would also pertain to smother in its germinal state any threat of isolated or collective aggression.

No one could hail this development with greater joy than he who has long upheld the principle that the idea of war as an apt and proportionate means of solving international conflicts is now out of date.

No one could wish success to this common effort, to be undertaken with a seriousness of purpose never before known, with greater enthusiasm, than he who has conscientiously striven to make the Christian and religious mentality reject modern war with its monstrous means of conducting hostilities…"

- Pope Pius XII, Democracy and a Lasting Peace, 1944

“…The unity of the world will be. The dignity of the human person shall be recognized not only formally but effectively. The inviolability of life, from the womb to old age… Undue social inequalities will be overcome. The relations between peoples will be peaceful, reasonable and fraternal. Neither selfishness, nor arrogance, nor poverty… [shall] prevent the establishment of a true human order, a common good, a new civilization…”

***—POPE PAUL VI, Urbi et Orbi Message, April 4th, 1971 ***

This World Federation will never occur at the moment given the current sorry state of humanity. It can only come around if the world is penetrated by Catholic teachings and values.

According to many Catholic prophecies there will come, after a period of great distress, a “sabbath day” for the world where Christ will be fully born within the hearts of all men, and all people will live like saints, but well before the Second Coming and the New Heavens and New earth.

Venerable Bartholomew Holzhauser (17th century)

“…A great change will come to pass, such as no mortal man will have expected…a new mankind will come into existence. God possesses the key to everything. Blessed is he who will then be able to praise him, having obeyed all his commandments. And the great monarch of the world will create new laws for the new mankind and will cause a new age to begin, in which there will be only one flock and one shepherd, and peace will be of long, long duration, for the glory of God in heaven and on earth…The Sixth Age of the Spirit commences with the powerful Monarch and the Holy Pontiff…This will be an age of consolation in which God will console His Spirit of the affliction and the great tribulation of the preceding age. All the nations will be united in the Catholic faith. The sacerdocy will flower more than ever, and men will seek the kingdom of God in all solicitude… Many saints and doctors will flourish in the earth. Men will love reason and justice. Peace will reign in all the universe, because the divine power will bind Satan for many years, until the son of perdition will rave anew…It is in that age that the relation of the sixth Spirit of the Lord will be known, that is to say the Spirit of Wisdom that God diffuses over all the surfaces of the globes in those times. For men will fear the Lord their God, they will observe the law and serve it with all their heart. The sciences will be multiplied and complete on the earth. The Holy Scriptures will be unanimously understood, without controversy and without the errors of heresies. Men will be enlightened, so much as in the natural sciences and in the celestial sciences. Finally, the Sixth Church, the Church of Philadelphia, is the type of this sixth age, for Philadelphia signifies friendship of brothers, and again guarding the heritage in union with the Lord. Now all these characters convene perfectly in the sixth age, in which they will have love, concord and perfect peace and in which the powerful Monarch will have to consider almost the entire world as his heritage. He will deliver up the earth, with the aid of the Lord his God from all his enemies, of ruin and of all evil…for all nations will be brought to the unity of the True catholic faith…”

Catholicism, unlike Protestantism, is not bleak about the future nor about the possibility of moral, humane progress for our race.

A new civilisation of love, to quote Blessed Pope John Paul II’s words, can come into being.

We never attain utopia, however we can certainly attain a united, much more Catholic world where such evils as war, abortion, euthanasia, social inequalities etc. are either eliminated or greatly lessened from their current state.

And as Catholics we have hope to believe that through the Holy Spirit the world will get better rather than worse, more unified rather than fragmented, more Catholic rather than atheist.

There will also be great scientific advancement but moral and ethical - in accordance with Catholic principles.

The above prophecy from Holzhauser, a prophet greatly respected by Pope Benedict XVI, saying that the “Spirit of Wisdom will be diffused over the globes” in this future time of world peace, that is other planets, may hint at future space exploration and a significant advancement in this science, again in accordance with Catholic morality.

Its far-off to our eyes but all things are possible to God.


#15

According to Venerable Holzhauser, this age of peace will begin when the Jews are freed from persecution by a foreign power called by the biblical name of “Babylon”, an ancient Empire which encompassed modern day Iran, Iraq, Syria and Lebannon - this will be defeated by a modern day “Roman Republic”, which will precipate the eventual creation of the “world political authority” or Federation of Nations:

"…The Sixth Epoch of the World commences with the emancipation of the people of Israel and the restoration of the Temple and of the city of Jerusalem and will endure until the advent of Jesus Christ.

For likewise, in this epoch, the people of Israel will be consoled to a very high degree by the Lord, our God, who will deliver them from the captivity of Babylon. The kingdoms, the nations, and the people will submit to the Roman Empire [new world political authority], furiously vanquished by the very powerful and very illustrious monarch who will govern during fifty-six years, rendering the peace of the universe…

Thus, in the Sixth Age, God will delight his Church with the greatest prosperity…The Lord will give good pastors to the Church. Men will live in peace and this will be granted because people will make their peace with God. Men will live in peace, each in his own field. They will be reconciled with the one God. They will live in the shadow of the powerful Monarch and of his successors. They will live under the protection of the Great Monarch and his successors…"

According to Holzhauser’s prophecies all of this will be preceded by a great world crisis - a very bad war or series of conflicts, which has its roots in the relationship between two great superpowers/nations beginning in the later part of the 20th century:

“After a world war will come a new period, in which two mighty ones will face each other. The wrangle between these two will begin in the second half of the twentieth century. It will overthrow mountains and silt up rivers. A great change will come to pass, such as no mortal man will have expected; Heaven and Hell will confront each other in this struggle, old states will perish and light and darkness will be pitted against each other with swords, but it will be swords of a different fashion. With these swords it will be possible to cut up the skies and split the earth. A great lament will come over all mankind…Neither of the two adversaries will conquer nor be vanquished. Both mighty ones will lie on the ground, and a new mankind will come into existence…When everything has been ruined by war…the Hand of Almighty God will work a marvelous change, something apparently impossible according to human understanding…Persecution will cease and justice shall rule. Religion seems to be suppressed, but by the changes of entire kingdoms it will be made more firm. He will destroy the rule of Moslemism. His dominion will extend from the East to the West. All nations will adore God their Lord according to Catholic teaching. There will be many wise and just men. The people will love justice, and peace will reign over the whole earth, for divine power will bind Satan for many years…”

Both superpowers, according to Holzhauser, will prove unable to defeat each other and instead, from mutual agreement, a new world federation will arise in peacetime which Holzhauser calls a “new” Roman Empire.

BTW I think “rule of Moslemism” refers only to Islamic extremism


#16

I’ve written about this a couple of times, such as here:
Well, St. Malachy was an actual person, who lived from 1094 to 1148. The first historical appearance of the prophecy comes four and a half centuries later, in 1595. St. Bernard of Clairvaux knew Malachy personally and even wrote a biography of him, but neither he nor anybody else ever mentioned Malachy’s prophecy. Presumably, the “prophecy” was all written at the same time, around 1595 when it was suddenly “discovered.” That means that it was written after the earlier of the papacies it discusses, and before everything afterward.

So the entries from Malachy’s time to about 1595 are in many cases quite good, like “Suburran abbot” for Anastasius IV, who, although not an abbot, was at least from Suburra, and “Jerusalem of Champagne” for Urban IV, who was from Champagne in France and served as Patriarch of Jerusalem. This accuracy is what you would expect if the prophecy were written afterward. Like I said, it would be like if I wrote a “prophecy” today about the presidents from Washington to Obama – it would be pretty close, wouldn’t it, since after all it is a hoax and I’m writing it with the benefit of historical knowledge about the presidents and their attributes.
… and here:
The “prophecies” are moderately accurate up to the time the prophecy was written (the late 16th century), because, of course, those things had already happened. It would be like me writing a “prophecy” about the presidents from Washington to Obama: “Plantation-owning general,” “Statesman from Quincy” and so on.

After that point (when the writer actually was writing about the future), for every one “prophecy” that rounds right, there are about ten that fall into one of these categories:

  1. So vague they could be about anyone: “Angelic shepherd,” “Intrepid faith,” “Religious man,” etc. Gee, you don’t say! A pope being a religious man! And actually, although some popes were professed religious, Pius VIII was not a member of any religious order, making him technically a secular man.

  2. Just wrong. Benedict XIII gets “Soldier in war,” but he was neither a soldier nor involved in any war. Clement IX gets “Star of the swans,” with the explanation, “The Italian word for swan, ‘Cigni,’ rhymes with Pope Alexander’s last name, ‘Chigi’.” Uh, no it doesn’t. Cigni is pronounced “Chee-nyee”; Chigi is pronounced “Kee-jee.”

  3. Prophecies that are “verified” with reasoning like, “well, his brother’s best friend’s mother-in-law knew a guy who came from a family that had a flower on its coat of arms.” So, for example, Gregory XVI gets “From the baths of Tuscany,” even though he was not from Tuscany, never lived there and had nothing to do with it, but he belonged to an order one of whose monastic houses (which he did not live in, btw) was called “Fonte Buono,” which means “good fountain” in Italian – and fountains and baths both contain water, right? Totally the same thing. Likewise, Leo IX gets “Wavy man,” and the best explanation anyone can think of it that he was very briefly (1602-05) cardinal-bishop (an honorary post for a top curial official, not the actual ruling bishop) of Palestrina, a city whose founding was legendarily attributed to Ulysses, who was a sailor (and thus went on the waves). Right, that totally makes Pope Leo a Wavy Man. And Clement XII gets “Lofty column” – although his name was Lorenzo, he was one priest of a church dedicated to St. Peter, and “Peter” come from the Greek word petros which means “rock,” and columns are made of rock, aren’t they?


#17

Of course. Also, and I’m not an expert on every papal quote, but the concept of unity among governments does not have to mean a singular power as is often thought of by the concept of a New World Order, or some other such label. For example:*Thus, as even in the kingdom of heaven He hath willed that the choirs of angels be distinct and some subject to others, and also in the Church has instituted various orders and a diversity of offices, so that all are not apostles or doctors or pastors, so also has He appointed that there should be various orders in civil society, differing indignity, rights, and power, whereby the State, like the Church, should be one body, consisting of many members, some nobler than others, but all necessary to each other and solicitous for the common good. (Pope Leo XIII, On Socialism, 6)*So above, Pope Leo is calling for “one body” and yet at the same time calling for diversity in power. In other words, the Catholic idea of “oneness” does not have to equal a singular government superpower.

Elsewhere, Pope Leo goes against the idea that there must be some ultimate “correct” form of government:*Again, it is not of itself wrong to prefer a democratic form of government, if only the Catholic doctrine be maintained as to the origin and exercise of power. Of the various forms of government, the Church does not reject any that are fitted to procure the welfare of the subject; she wishes only – and this nature itself requires – that they should be constituted without involving wrong to any one, and especially without violating the rights of the Church. (Pope Leo XIII, On the Nature of Human Liberty, 44)*Additionally, he stated that a country may strive for independence:*Neither does the Church condemn those who, if it can be done without violation of justice, wish to make their country independent of any foreign or despotic power. Nor does she blame those who wish to assign to the State the power of self-government, and to its citizens the greatest possible measure of prosperity. (46)*There are a number of papal quotes specific to the powers of government in condemnation of overbearing power that is not consistent with the “superpower” notion of a NWO. For example, I think these quotes are related when you consider the concept behind the comments:*While it has been rightly emphasized that increasing per capita income cannot be the ultimate goal of political and economic activity, it is still an important means of attaining the objective of the fight against hunger and absolute poverty. Hence, the illusion that a policy of mere redistribution of existing wealth can definitively resolve the problem must be set aside. In a modern economy, the value of assets is utterly dependent on the capacity to generate revenue in the present and the future. Wealth creation therefore becomes an inescapable duty, which must be kept in mind if the fight against material poverty is to be effective in the long term. (Pope Benedict XVI, December 8, 2008)

To remedy these wrongs** the socialists, working on the poor man’s envy of the rich, are striving to do away with private property, and contend that individual possessions should become the common property of all**, to be administered by the State or by municipal bodies. They hold that by thus transferring property from private individuals to the community, the present mischievous state of things will be set to rights, inasmuch as each citizen will then get his fair share of whatever there is to enjoy. But their contentions are so clearly powerless to end the controversy that were they carried into effect the working man himself would be among the first to suffer. They are, moreover, emphatically unjust, for they would rob the lawful possessor, distort the functions of the State, and create utter confusion in the community. (Leo XIII, Rerum Novarum, 4)*So anyway, when someone produces some “pro-one-world-superpower” quote from a Pope, make sure that the Pope is using the terms “unified” or “oneness” or whatever in the same way the claimant is using the term. Sometimes, the Pope may well be using such terms in a different way.


#18

"...Although the hostility to world organizations is at least as widespread among conservative Catholics as among conservative Protestants, it really does not fit very well with Catholic tradition or the current understanding of doctrine. Since the Holy Roman Empire proved to be something of a disappointment, the Church has been slow to support particular schemes for universal government. However, the notion of some sort of secular international authority, one that would not detract from the sovereignty of independent states but serve to facilitate their interaction, does fit rather neatly into Catholic social teaching.

Reference to the new Catechism of the Catholic Church can quickly illustrate this point. The general rationale for government is given by section 1927. As we can easily see, this rationale in principle invites universal application:

"It is the role of the state to defend and promote the common good of civil society. The common good of the whole human family calls for an organization of society on an international level."

The Catechism is careful, however, to point out that even an authority which is universal in jurisdiction is not therefore necessarily universal in power. Indeed, as Section 1884 explains, the situation is quite the opposite:

"God has not willed to reserve to himself all exercise of power. He entrusts to every creature the functions it is capable of performing, according to the capacities of its own nature. This mode of governance ought to be followed in social life. The way God acts in governing the world, which bears witness to such great regard to human freedom, should inspire the wisdom of those who govern human communities. They should behave as ministers of divine providence."

What we are talking about here, of course, is the principle of subsidiarity. In political theory, it takes the form of the axiom that the most local level of an organization which is capable of handling a certain issue should have the authority to handle that issue. Subsidiarity is the guiding constitutional principle of the Church. It is the reason why bishops have such wide discretion over matters of discipline and liturgy in their own dioceses. Indeed, it is part of the secret of the Church's longevity: if the Church really were the centralized autocracy of Protestant mythology, it would have strangled in red tape many centuries ago.

Subsidiarity has applications far beyond ecclesiology. It is closely akin to the principle of federalism in American constitutional theory, under which the states are supposed to retain primary jurisdiction over government functions that are local by their nature...What we should note here is that the principle does not just protect the rights of local jurisdictions. It also strongly implies that hierarchy, properly understood, is a positive good. Section 1885 suggests, in fact, that good government naturally seeks to make the tranquility of order universal:

"The principle of subsidiarity is opposed to all forms of collectivism. It sets limits for state intervention. It aims at harmonizing relationships between individuals and societies. It tends toward the establishment of true international order."..."

- John J. Reilly


#19

[quote="codephined, post:1, topic:289798"]

My question is why are our Popes calling for and supporting a new socialist world government? and Please don't respond with "the New World Order is conspiracy-theory" ... it's out in the open and in our faces -- if you haven't heard of it, you haven't been paying attention.

[/quote]

Well, you kind of cut off discussion by ruling out a particular response.

You keep saying "we know" this and that. I don't know these things. And it's not for lack of paying attention or lack of exposure to this perspective. I grew up believing what you believe about the "new world order." I now believe that yes, it's mostly a conspiracy theory, though there are folks out there who probably would like to impose some kind of authoritarian world government (some radical environmentalists, for instance, do seem to think that democracy is inadequate to deal with global warming).

You need to pay attention to what exactly the Popes are calling for instead of assuming that it's all code for some vast conspiracy.

Edwin


#20

Wow, interesting. Thanks for the information, I'm going to research this guy some more.

[quote="Vouthon, post:15, topic:289798"]
"After a world war will come a new period, in which two mighty ones will face each other. The wrangle between these two will begin in the second half of the twentieth century. It will overthrow mountains and silt up rivers. A great change will come to pass, such as no mortal man will have expected; Heaven and Hell will confront each other in this struggle, old states will perish and light and darkness will be pitted against each other with swords, but it will be swords of a different fashion. With these swords it will be possible to cut up the skies and split the earth. A great lament will come over all mankind...Neither of the two adversaries will conquer nor be vanquished. Both mighty ones will lie on the ground, and a new mankind will come into existence...When everything has been ruined by war...the Hand of Almighty God will work a marvelous change, something apparently impossible according to human understanding...Persecution will cease and justice shall rule. Religion seems to be suppressed, but by the changes of entire kingdoms it will be made more firm. He will destroy the rule of Moslemism. His dominion will extend from the East to the West. All nations will adore God their Lord according to Catholic teaching. There will be many wise and just men. The people will love justice, and peace will reign over the whole earth, for divine power will bind Satan for many years..."

[/quote]

^ Do you believe this is referring to the Millennial Kingdom?


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