Population? -- if we were all to follow the Catholic way


#1

I am not, in any way, proposing to question God’s ways. This is simply a practical question I’d like to get some thoughts on.

I gathered little data (and verified none) for this question, I am (admittedly) going on assumptions for the most part.

some questionable data:

There have been some 32 milllion abortions in the US since Roe V Wade. There were many more before that.

Virtually all married couples practice birth control (Catholics included).

There are 2.3 children per household.

Some questionable assumptions:

The average number of children per household of devout non-contracepting Catholics is much higher then the 2.3.

There would be milllions upon millions more people in the US if there were no abortions.

Safe to assume?:

Mathematically it would appear safe to assume that the number of people in the US alone (especially in a handful of future generations) would be many orders of magnitude greater then what it is because people practice ways against Gods will. I think if we were to run some numbers we would find that the number of people would far exceed the worlds natural resource abilities to maintain the population.

Humans have no natural enemy with the exceptin of other humans and quite obviously it is not Gods will for war to monitor population. (Of course it may very well be a considerable truth non-the-less).

I simply would like a pratical answer (if it so exists) to go along with my inner answer of , “God would take care of it”.


#2

The practical answer is man’s answer. “It is in God’s hands” is the true answer. We’ll never know what practical answers could have come from those who are not with us today as a result of the things you mentioned.

I like Mother Teresa’s response… “saying there are too many children is like saying there are too many flowers in the field.”


#3

if only they stayed that way (like flowers in a field, that is).

:whistle:


#4

Let me reply without relying on religious doctrine and dogma.

One of the things that humanity needs badly … and is heavily dependent on … is a very few individuals who are geniuses.

Not merely smart people … or talented people … or people good with sodoku or good at playing stock options … But, real geniuses … which are extremely rare.

Tesla.

Edison.

Westinghouse.

The Wright brothers.

What happens is that one absolute genius, many of which are not particularly interested in money … devise things that are of inestimable value to all of mankind.

I’ve just picked out a few … and there are others in other fields.

Borlaug.

Just one person can do enormous benefit.

And, in our zeal to limit population growth, we may be “birthconrolling” or aborting or euthanizing one of these geniuses.

Steinmetz … was deformed. A candidate for elimination.

You can probably make up a list of other men and women who had a phenomenally positive effect on humanity and on the economy of the world.

Hall and his process for making aluminum into a household product instead of a rare metal.

Pasteur.

Just a few people. And we may be destroying them because … why? … someone does a human math calculation and decides we can’t feed everyone. Which has already been shown to be false.

Socialist materialist radicals have always advocated killing [they use nicer words like “liquidating”] people they don’t want. They come up with all kinds of excuses to justify killing people they regard as inferior.

Read pages 167 and 168 of Dinesh D’Souza’s book “The Enemy at Home” … he discusses the eugenics movement as the products of people such as Sanger, Mead, Kinsey, Greer, etc.

I’ll post a few links.

Ad hominem attacks are generally frowned upon, but sometimes we have to look at the resumes of some of these writers and promoters of ideas that turn out to be really bad ideas.


#5

This may help:

The Population Myth
envoymagazine.com/backissues/2.3/coverstory.html


#6

The population issue, in the real world, (as I see it daily), is that the prudent people ARE practicing birth control, while the imprdudent, uneducated spit out kids like gumballs out of a gumball machine.

The population balance is getting very much out of balance. Educated people with morals (Catholic or otherwise) will soon be outnumbered by people with no morals and no education to speak of.

We should all read “Atlas Shrugged”.


#7

The notion that imprudent people have lots of children is a judgment that denies that children who grow up into adults are a gift to the world.

There is an idea that the only index of prudence is to have a very small number of children.

We need MORE children … not fewer children.

The more children we have the more likely we will produce more of the one-in-ten-million geniuses who will invent more and more amazing and wonderful devices that will provide material progress to humanity.

Let me get back to the benefit to society of having a lot of children:

For example: both Germany and South Africa used a chemical process that just about replaced petroleum for production of liquid fuels. Fischer-Tropsch is one commonly used process. It uses solid coal to make liquid alcohol. [There are many different “kinds” of alcohol … ethanol is one … often made from corn or sugar. Methanol is another … but methanol can be made from almost anything including wood chips, garbage, natural gas, coal, etc.] There are many alcohols.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcohol

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fischer-Tropsch_process

and

www.sasol.com

These chemical processes are commonly known to students of high-school chemistry.

There is no reason why folks who understand biology, chemistry and physics cannot develop additional processes for conversion of commonly available materials into liquid fuels. Just keep in mind before doing this in your basement, … that this stuff is volatile, flammable and explosive. [Don’t do this at your home basement laboratory.]

Folks interested in all this application of technology to new processes, should read about Hall who converted aluminum from a precious metal into a common everyday household product. Aluminum is one of the most commonly available elements in the earth’s crust, yet until Hall came along it was locked up and unavailable.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hall-Héroult_process

Read also about the work of Tesla:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikola_Tesla

These are geniuses who devised fabulous economic progress through technology. They didn’t sit around and say that the world’s population must be reduced. They worked at applying their genius to solve problems facing humanity.

One wonders how many geniuses have been killed in the womb by abortion. Perhaps one of those killed babies might have come up with a new process for creating a liquid fuel from our earth’s crust using hydro power or solar or cosmic radiation.

AND … just in case someone gets the idea that we need abortion to eliminate undesireable unwanted deformed babies who grow up to be deformed adults who produce nothing, … read about the work of Charles Steinmetz:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Proteus_Steinmetz
Last edited by Al Masetti : Jan 17, '08 at 9:19 am.


#8

Mijoy:

It would be a mistake to assume that if the Catholic teaching was followed, that it would result in x percent greater population. The Church encourages children, but doesn’t mandate a set number. So in theory, the number of children being born could be exactly the same.

In addition, if the Catholic way were univerally followed, you wouldn’t have the children that result from pre-marital relations a la Jamie Lynn Spears, so in this respect, you may have less births.

That being said, I do agree that the healthy and capable married couples need to be fruitful in their families, and I do believe that should this happen, God will indeed find a way to take care of all of us.


#9

Welcome to the forums, Brother John. :slight_smile:

In addition to reading Ayn Rand, you may want to read the article linked in post #5.


#10

While it is true that couples that do not contracept have more children, those children tend to be less wastefull and more responsible stewards of what they have.

While it is true that true geniuses are fewer, we need to appreciate the rough and not just the diamonds.

Besides eliminating geniuses, how many people called to be priests, nuns, and religious are gone?

Intelligent and responsible cooperation in God’s Creativity is what Catholics are called to. If we followed this principle the world would be an awesome place to live.


#11

It is a myth that the world is or ever will be overpopulated. It is not and never will be. What is out of whack is the distribution of resources.


#12

That’s what is going on where I live. The Hispanic Catholics are going to take over very soon. Many are illiterate, cannot speak English and don’t want to learn and are on welfare. But they sure do procreate. I suppose the RCC is proud of them though because they sure don’t practice birth control at all.

BTW…it’s a plot…it really is!


#13

The practical answer is man’s answer. “It is in God’s hands” is the true answer. We’ll never know what practical answers could have come from those who are not with us today as a result of the things you mentioned.

It is in God Hands in not a reponse enough for the real world.

Just one person can do enormous benefit.
And, in our zeal to limit population growth, we may be “birthconrolling” or aborting or euthanizing one of these geniuses.

Or a serial killers or a drug dealers too. Statistics go either way.

It would be a mistake to assume that if the Catholic teaching was followed, that it would result in x percent greater population. The Church encourages children, but doesn’t mandate a set number. So in theory, the number of children being born could be exactly the same.

Althought NFP is good in term of holliness and the Church is correct to say is the ideal type of Birth Control, the fact is most people cannot just do it and will do either contracept or go for abortion or infanticide. I thing the CC should see the reality. In past times people had 9 children because only 5 will see adulthood, not now. If you have 9 today all 9 will most likely became adults. That is a strain on the enviroment and resourses.

While it is true that couples that do not contracept have more children, those children tend to be less wastefull and more responsible stewards of what they have.

Couples that do not contracept can aford to be lest wastefull because most couples do contracept.
But I give the NFP apologists a point. The Baby Boomers the first group that grow with ABC as a option were the most selfindulgent generation in the USA and the Clintons morally and Bush economicaly have been the most selfindulgent administrations in the last 50 years.
And a first world family of 2 children spends more resourses that a family of 6 in the third wold.
But ABC is here to stay and the CC should face the reality.


#14

Welcome to our world. They contribute little or nothing to the parish coffers, but want their own Mass, their own “this”, their own “that”…

Ok, so I’ll buy that we should be thinking like Jesus and such, and we should be doing these things for them…BUT…while they may not be able to “afford” tithes, they don’t do any work around the parish either. There’s plenty of honey do’s at any given time…and plenty of work to go around for Fall Fest, Casino Night for the school, etc…but they all seem to disappear then.

end of rant :rolleyes:


#15

Wow… Some really bad misconceptions here! First, overpopulation is a myth… second, if we are just talking abortion, we are missing something… if the entire worlds population practiced Catholic morality, we would not be having so many children out of wedlock either… surely, this would balance things out quite a bit. Third, NFP is effective when practiced faithfully, and as others have pointed out, we are not obligated to have tons of children. How about the lost wages and Social Security taxes that we would have if so many souls had lived instead of being aborted? How about more compassion for the poor? Surely if we all “followed the Catholic way” we would show more compassion for our poor wouldn’t we?

Now that being said, if we were all to follow Catholic morality, we would naturally take care of our widows and elderly as our early church did when they assigned deacons to make sure the needs of others were provided for right?

I was quite interested that some have also brought up petro vs bio fuels… we are so close to making bio fuels feasible right now it isn’t funny. I work for a cutting edge bio fuel company and every day there are people coming up with solutions that just get shut down by the EPA or the National Biodiesel Board. In the guise of our safety, they refuse to look at new methods that are more cost effective and better for the environment. You should see the hoops we have to jump through to prove we are safe. The EPA literally states that if you use a different process than the 1940’s method for bio-fuels, you have to come up with a minimum of 2 MIL $ worth of research to prove it.

There are so many different things being discussed on this one thread because life is a balancing act. Give here, take there… in the short term, we can look at each individual “issue” and come up with our own idea of what will “cure” our problems. But short term answers don’t cure long term problems.

I personally think we have to try to look at the whole picture… God does provide, but we are commissioned to be the stewards of the resources. Laws will not make us care for the poor if it is not in our hearts to do what we can. We have to think big but our actions have to start small. Educate our children to live morally, love others, and find happiness in helping the less fortunate. If we do that, other problems will solve themselves… people will be less wasteful so they can contribute to others, less unwed parents needing government aid, more tax paying workers means less burden on the individual worker… etc.

So what have you done to help? This is not an accusation, but a challenge… to teach your kids morality, to be compassionate to the less fortunate, to put others needs before your wants…


#16

Wow!! These sentiments are wrong on so many levels. "Lord when did we see you hungry and feed you, when did we see you thirsty and give you drink? and Jesus said “whenever you do this for the least you do for Me”


#17

And, I VERY clearly stated that it is our duty to do these things, and that we DO do those things. But, what I am pointing out is REALITY, whether it fits your philosophical views or not.

It is FACT that they have their own Mass. It is FACT that they do not contribute. It is FACT that they do not participate in parish functions.

While ones ability to tithe may vary, they DO have the ability to help the parish in other ways. As it is our duty to “feed the hungry”…is it not their duty as well, to participate in the support of the parish…beyond populating, that is?


#18

Beyond the fact that, if we put our lives and thus our fertility in God’s hands (practicing NFP morally when needed) He will take care of us, the earth has a great self-regulating feature: there will be a limit to the amount of food the earth will produce. When we actually do reach that limit, then, as harsh as it may seem, the population numbers will take care of themselves, with no human intervention needed. As someone else pointed out, there may be a number of brilliant people who will come up with was to produce more food, and thus support more people than we could right now with our current technology.

Also, just because people aren’t immorally limiting their fertility doesn’t mean each family will have a dozen kids. Some perfectly healthy people only have 2 or 3, others will have infertility and not be able to have any biological kids at all. God designed us in a particular way and gave us the laws He did in His infinite wisdom. I’ll trust in that above any human wisdom.


#19

If we were all to follow the Catholic way, it would indeed result in a population explosion–

–in heaven.


#20

Amen!!! And isn’t this where it counts? Great point Kay Cee!


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