Pre-existence of Jesus Christ?

#21

God is one being who is three persons.

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#22

This is a delightful thing about the Father, about God.
In Jesus saying that only the Father knows the day and the hour, he is not saying that the Father knows “Thursday, at 3 p.m.”
He is saying that the Father “is knowing” the day and the hour; the Father is experiencing the sight of the day and the hour eternally.

Jesus, even though he is from the beginning with the Father, being that he is human talking with his disciples, he humanly only “is knowing one thing at a time” then moves to knowing the next thing temporally.

The Father eternally knows Moses on the top of a mountain;
The Father eternally knows Elijah on the top of a mountain;
The Father eternally knows Jesus and three disciples on the top of a mountain;
But the Father does not eternally know this knowing “alone”; the Father “knows himself knowing Moses and knowing Elijah and knowing Jesus and 3 disciples together with them knowing the same thing when they know it temporally.”
The two prophets and Jesus and the three disciples have all been granted to share in knowing along with God the Father, and so they see each other in God’s seeing of them, in the Father’s seeing of them together.
This was Moses in his own time and Elijah in his own time and Jesus in his own time seeing each other in the Father’s time which is now.
This was not Moses and Elijah appearing after they had died.

The Father eternally is seeing the day and the hour of the end but he is seeing it together with all who see it when it comes, but we temporally do not know that yet and so it has not come.
All things happen on earth when we know together with God in his knowing that is how God can participate in temporal reality. Nothing is caused temporally until it is known both by God and by a temporal creature.

John Martin

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#23

The Catechism can clarify this:

**_ 472 This human soul that the Son of God assumed is endowed with a true human knowledge. As such, this knowledge could not in itself be unlimited: it was exercised in the historical conditions of his existence in space and time. This is why the Son of God could, when he became man, “increase in wisdom and in stature, and in favour with God and man”,<Lk 2:52> and would even have to inquire for himself about what one in the human condition can learn only from experience.<Cf. Mk 6 38; 8 27; Jn 11:34; etc.> This corresponded to the reality of his voluntary emptying of himself, taking “the form of a slave”.<Phil 2:7> _

**_ 473 But at the same time, this truly human knowledge of God’s Son expressed the divine life of his person.<Cf. St. Gregory the Great, “Sicut aqua” ad Eulogium, Epist. Lib. 10, 39 PL 77, 1097 Aff.; DS 475> “The human nature of God’s Son, not by itself but by its union with the Word, knew and showed forth in itself everything that pertains to God.”<St. Maximus the Confessor, Qu. et dub. 66 PG 90, 840A> Such is first of all the case with the intimate and immediate knowledge that the Son of God made man has of his Father.<Cf. Mk 14:36; Mt 11:27; Jn 1:18; 8:55; etc.> The Son in his human knowledge also showed the divine penetration he had into the secret thoughts of human hearts.<Cf. Mk 2:8; Jn 2 25; 6:61; etc.> _

**_ 474 By its union to the divine wisdom in the person of the Word incarnate, Christ enjoyed in his human knowledge the fullness of understanding of the eternal plans he had come to reveal.<Cf. Mk 8:31; 9:31; 10:33-34; 14:18-20, 26-30> What he admitted to not knowing in this area, he elsewhere declared himself not sent to reveal.<Cf. Mk 13:32, Acts 1:7> _

If I may paraphrase:
Jesus had and has two natures, each nature having a mind and a will. In His human mind, Jesus learned things as a human being learns; in His divine mind, He eternally knows all things. Thus when He speaks of His human knowledge, He can speak of things He has learned and of things He has not yet learned. In His divine mind, He eternally knows all things.

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#24

But according to a literal interpretation of the passage, only the Father knows, it would mean that the Holy Spirit does not know the day or the hour. There are three Persons in the Trinity. Concerning the three Persons, only the Father knows the day or the hour?

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#25

If, as I suggested, Jesus was speaking “out of” and I would further suggest for the sake of His human mind - His humanity - then He would know in His humanity at that time, of God the Father. It was God the Father by whom He was sent, and to whom He was living in obedience.

I’ll further suggest that Jesus was not sent to give lessons in dogmatic theology, but to demonstrate and live in obedience to God. This is the fact that is crucial to understanding His life. I don’t think He would want to inappropriately confuse the matter, at that point, by adding, “By the way, I am God and I am living in obedience to Myself too!” Jesus is both man and God. We are saved through the works of His sacred humanity, He who was and is almighty God, the Son, inseparable from His Father and the Spirit, in the divine Holy Trinity.

From the Catechism:

475 Similarly, at the sixth ecumenical council, Constantinople III in 681, the Church confessed that Christ possesses two wills and two natural operations, divine and human. They are not opposed to each other, but co-operate in such a way that the Word made flesh willed humanly in obedience to his Father all that he had decided divinely with the Father and the Holy Spirit for our salvation.<Cf. Council of Constantinople III (681): DS 556-559> Christ’s human will “does not resist or oppose but rather submits to his divine and almighty will.”<Council of Constantinople III: DS 556>

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#26

Surprisingly good, thorough and doctrinally accurate answers.
I’m sure that all three Persons of the Trinity are, always were and ever will be as pleased as I am with men’s willingness and desire to help each other understand (if not KNOW) Him.
Thanks, guys.
The LORD bless and keep you all… in Jesus’ name.

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#27

Proverbs Chapter 8

Chapter eight of Proverbs provides evidence for the pre existence of Jesus. Speaking of Wisdom it says 'I was set up from eternity, and of old before the earth was made." Proverbs 8:1234:
Also “I was with him forming all things: and was delighted every day, playing before him at all times; Playing in the world; and my delights were to be with the children of men.” Proverbs 8:30-31

These passages can show that the Holy Spirit, and or Jesus were with God the Father creating the universe. The image of child playing before God is a striking image that is evoked from this passage.

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#28

Yes because Jesus ,God,and the Holy Spirit are all one.

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#29

You’d have to ask a fundamentalist that question. Your question is based on your understanding of a topic you have little knowledge of (not a problem…it only becomes a problem when you can’t see your own limitations)
, and according to your reading of the words, with the bias you live with, in the time and cultural context you live with.
That’s called literalist fundamentalism, and Catholics are not fundamentalists. Catholics read scripture as a community, using faith and reason integrated.
And with a deep exploration of the whole of the matter, not within rigid individualist parameters.

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#30

Mr Haydock believes Jesus - your choice is, should you believe Mr. Haydock, the Catholic Church, and Jesus, or should you believe your present understanding of the passage at hand. I’d vote for the first group. Re-read Mr. Haydock’s commentary, maybe more slowly. Apparent contradictions in Scripture are always that: apparent.

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#31

Which begs the question, “Is the bible in chronological order”? Meaning is John 1:1-2 and John 1:14-15 chronologically ahead of Genesis 1?

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#32

Trinity of God is a great mystery which human mind can’t fully understand.All the three persons have equal power and status But this need not be confused with the words spoken by Jesus in the four Gospels,almost all of which would appear to show that father is the chief who only knows every thing,he is Jesus’s master,he is sending holy spirit etc.The fact is that in the Gospel Jesus is and is speaking also as ,not fully God but as man incarnate of God.Fully man subject to pain and suffering as normal human,though also God.So don’t quote anything said by Jesus and ask- if he is God,why he said this,why he did this etc.which is exactly what you have done .Hope it is clear.

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#33

They do? For the whole Bible or just selected passages which they get to pick and choose?
For example, I thought it was the Protestants who took the words of Consecration figuratively or symbolically as a Christian community and that Catholics took the words of Consecration literally, i.e., in some sort of a fundamentalist sense.

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#34

We take Jesus’ words literally because we are reading it in the context of other passages that support the Real Presence and in light of two thousand years of Catholic tradition, going back to the earliest Christians, who all understood Jesus to be using those words in a non-metaphorical way. That’s not the same as a fundamentalist approach to Scripture which ignores context and tradition.

I think you bring up a good point that fundamentalists seem to be only aware of the nuances of language and the use of metaphor when it comes to the Eucharist for some reason. But that’s an inconsistency on their part, not Catholics.

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#35

Big topic, so some reading would probably help you.
1 Literal sense of scripture is not the same thing as literalism. Does that make sense to you?
2 Fundamentalism is not determined by whether this passage or that is taken in a literal sense. Fundamentalist readings constrain the words on a page to a rigid and individualist context. Passages are isolated out of context. That context must include the original culture and language the passages were written in, and also the living interpretation by the community the scriptures exist within.
In fundamentalism, the truth becomes locked in the words on the page, and limits the meaning to that which the individual reader is capable of. The words become “dead” on the page.

This is a huge topic. If you want to know the Catholic perspective on this there are reams and reams of reading. Several lines on a blog won’t do it, any more than physics is explainable quickly.

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closed #36

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