Pre-Marriage counseling during an annulment?

#41

Looking for reasons to determine the validity of a marraige or non-validity!

First hand experience would be best!!

Thanks,

Cathoversal

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#42

[quote="Cathoversal, post:41, topic:193855"]
Looking for reasons to determine the validity of a marraige or non-validity!

First hand experience would be best!!

Thanks,

Cathoversal

[/quote]

Here they are (1ke posted them above)

A decree of nullity indicates one of three things:

(a) a dirimit impediment existed prior to the marriage and no dispensation was received (if dispensable)
(b) defect of consent existed at the time the vows were exchanged
(c) defect of intent existed at the time the vows were exchanged

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#43

Your requested quote on validity:

Canon 1060 Marriage enjoys the favour of law. Consequently, in doubt the validity of a marriage must be upheld until the contrary is proven.

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#44

[quote="Cathoversal, post:37, topic:193855"]
You and KAGE AR may need to speak with one another. You state actions, he says actions to no come into play! I am very confused with you 2 giving me contradicting statements about the Church and its reasons for an annulment!

-Cathoversal

[/quote]

Not at all.

Someones actions after the wedding cannot invalidate a marriage.

Someones actions after the wedding may be indicative of a defect at the time of the marriage.

Please, spend a few bucks on a book so you will be clear on these things, it is well worth the money.

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#45

I think you already have you mind made up on this but I can try to answer the questions you posed.

  1. Why would the tribunal not grant the annulment? If the tribunal believed, based on the information it reviews, that a valid bond existed at the time of the marriage, it can’t declare the marriage null. It doesn’t matter what happened afterwards; just at that point in time. It sounds like you have a pretty good case for lack of intent but it all depends on the material presented to the tribunal. All people here are saying is that there is a risk involved in presumining that the marriage will be found null. If in doubt (which is technicallly where you are until you get a ruling from the tribunal) the expectation is in favor of the bond. Which means you probably shouldn’t be planning your next wedding quite yet. :slight_smile:

  2. You didn’t ask this but sometimes, even if the first marriage is found to be null, there are restrictions before you can attempt another wedding (counseling, a waiting period, etc). It’s best to find out for sure about any such restrictions before you start serious marriage prep.

  3. Would you need to go back with your former spouse? If, for whatever reason, the first marriage is not found invalid, there is no requirement that you reconcile with your ex. In fact, in most diocese, before an annulment case is filed, there has to be reasonable certainty that reconciliation is not possible.

Good luck.

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#46

I have not been denied an annulment but I know two personal friends who have been. One of them tried for an annulment 4 times and was denied 4 times. Another one was just recently denied.

One of them, unfortunately, has decided that this is man's law and not God's, which is not true, but she has gotten remarried outside the church. She struggles with it and continues to attend the Catholic parish we are in, but she is unable to receive the Sacraments.

The other one is deciding what she will do.

This is not a struggle I would like to face, but I hope I would make the right decision and stay with what God wants, not what I want.

God bless you and I will pray for a good outcome to the process for you.

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#47

[quote="kage_ar, post:44, topic:193855"]
Not at all.

Someones actions after the wedding cannot invalidate a marriage.

Someones actions after the wedding may be indicative of a defect at the time of the marriage.

Please, spend a few bucks on a book so you will be clear on these things, it is well worth the money.

[/quote]

We are discussing the marriage in the Church, not the civil marriage, right? If that is the case, it makes the annulment almost certain since it has been a very short time... all of which she stated she did not want to be married to me. Now that is what I call a defect!

-Cathoversal

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#48

[quote="Regi, post:46, topic:193855"]
I have not been denied an annulment but I know two personal friends who have been. One of them tried for an annulment 4 times and was denied 4 times. Another one was just recently denied.

One of them, unfortunately, has decided that this is man's law and not God's, which is not true, but she has gotten remarried outside the church. She struggles with it and continues to attend the Catholic parish we are in, but she is unable to receive the Sacraments.

The other one is deciding what she will do.

This is not a struggle I would like to face, but I hope I would make the right decision and stay with what God wants, not what I want.

God bless you and I will pray for a good outcome to the process for you.

[/quote]

What are the reasons given my the tribunal?

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#49

[quote="Cathoversal, post:48, topic:193855"]
What are the reasons given my the tribunal?

[/quote]

The Tribunal does not give a reason (that I have ever seen). Marriage comes to them assumed valid. If they do not find a defect, they do not declare the marriage null.

The reason is that the marriage is valid.

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#50

Cathoversal,

Side point: I might have missed if you posted, (none of my business anyway) but if there are children involved, they are going through a lot of heartache and stress right now and need to be parented without a “third party” interference so soon.

If you don’t have children, disregard…perhaps this will help someone else reading who is in your/our situation.

Blessings and prayers!

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#51

The length of time since the convalidation is not relevant to whether or not a defect in consent or intent was present at the time **of **the convalidation.

However, you also stated that she thought convalidating the marriage, and you returning to your faith, might make things different-- save the marriage, if you will.

Her consent and intent might very well have been valid. It depends upon her actual state of mind and intent going into the convalidation.

If she did not mean the vows, and told your priest this prior to convalidation, the priest could not have performed the convalidation. A priest aware of an invalidating impediment **cannot **witness the exchange of consent.

The priest, then, must have been convinced of her real consent and intent.

Therefore, I do not think it is as clear cut as you believe it to be. The investigation and witness testimony will have to be clear. It is not merely her own word, but corroboration of others, that is necessary as part of the tribunal investigation.

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#52

Cathoversal,

I just want to say that I agree with you that on the surface a decree of nullity seems likely. But likely does not equal certain. There are *many *people who are told of their "slam dunk" case, only to be shocked and disappointed when the marriage is upheld as valid.

Most priests will not send a case to the tribunal (because that is diocesan policy) unless they are pretty convinced that there is evidence of nullity.

And yet, there are still a good percentage turned down. A about a third of the couples (in the US) who were likely told by their priest they have a "good chance" instead have their marriage found valid. Yes, about a third. It's not some miniscule number, it's a lot of couples.

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#53

If there is anything I’ve learned about annulments here at CAF, it is that receiving a Declaration of Nullity is never a certainty. According to Catholic teaching, marriage “enjoys the favor of the law,” so the Church upholds the marriage until someone proves invalidity. Since the Church teaches that only death ends a marriage, the civil divorce means little to the Church that a Declaration of Nullity should be issued. Most important are the details surrounding dating, engagement, and the period of time most proximate to the wedding day and the exchange of vows. And, the fact that in this case a priest went ahead with the convalidation is a concern regarding receiving a Declaration of Nullity. The convalidation indicates that the priest viewed the consent and intent, and thus the marriage, as valid, so the Church after investigation may concur. Nothing the wife did after the wedding can change the validity at the time the vows were exchanged. It is not a given that a Decree of Nullity is forthcoming, so the marriage may be binding.

My husband’s family is dealing with a similar situation. His brother married his wife in a civil ceremony when she was pregnant. When the baby was about 7-8 months old, they had their marriage convalidated and had a nice Church wedding and big reception. They had a second child together and several years of marriage, then divorced when his wife left him for a woman. If there is a chance of getting a Declaration of Nullity were he to pursue it, I’d say there is a good chance brother’s marriage would be found invalid. Is it a given, though? Not at all. The convalidation and children will make figuring it out very complicated. But, he isn’t interested in figuring it out and will not pursue an annulment. Sadly, he is going ahead with an invalid second marriage this weekend, invalid because he has not received a Declaration of Nullity and the Church still views him as married, and he did not receive dispensations to marry a non-Catholic in a Methodist Church even if he was free to marry now. He and his woman are risking all by not following the teachings of Holy Mother Church. I pray that someday they will validate their marriage in the Church, but by going ahead this weekend, they are really complicating things and may someday find out that they can never really be married validly. Tragic. And, it could be avoided, but he didn’t listen and isn’t interested in following the teachings of the Church, so…

Cathoversal, maybe YOU will listen and avoid the possibility of mortal sin by considering yourself validly married now until you find out differently if/when you receive a Declaration of Nullity?

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#54

[quote="SwizzleStick, post:53, topic:193855"]
If there is anything I've learned about annulments here at CAF, it is that receiving a Declaration of Nullity is never a certainty. According to Catholic teaching, marriage "enjoys the favor of the law," so the Church upholds the marriage until someone proves invalidity. Since the Church teaches that only death ends a marriage, the civil divorce means little to the Church that a Declaration of Nullity should be issued. Most important are the details surrounding dating, engagement, and the period of time most proximate to the wedding day and the exchange of vows. And, the fact that in this case a priest went ahead with the convalidation is a concern regarding receiving a Declaration of Nullity. The convalidation indicates that the priest viewed the consent and intent, and thus the marriage, as valid, so the Church after investigation may concur. Nothing the wife did after the wedding can change the validity at the time the vows were exchanged. It is not a given that a Decree of Nullity is forthcoming, so the marriage may be binding.

My husband's family is dealing with a similar situation. His brother married his wife in a civil ceremony when she was pregnant. When the baby was about 7-8 months old, they had their marriage convalidated and had a nice Church wedding and big reception. They had a second child together and several years of marriage, then divorced when his wife left him for a woman. If there is a chance of getting a Declaration of Nullity were he to pursue it, I'd say there is a good chance brother's marriage would be found invalid. Is it a given, though? Not at all. The convalidation and children will make figuring it out very complicated. But, he isn't interested in figuring it out and will not pursue an annulment. Sadly, he is going ahead with an invalid second marriage this weekend, invalid because he has not received a Declaration of Nullity and the Church still views him as married, and he did not receive dispensations to marry a non-Catholic in a Methodist Church even if he was free to marry now. He and his woman are risking all by not following the teachings of Holy Mother Church. I pray that someday they will validate their marriage in the Church, but by going ahead this weekend, they are really complicating things and may someday find out that they can never really be married validly. Tragic. And, it could be avoided, but he didn't listen and isn't interested in following the teachings of the Church, so.....

Cathoversal, maybe YOU will listen and avoid the possibility of mortal sin by considering yourself validly married now until you find out differently if/when you receive a Declaration of Nullity?

[/quote]

I know exacly what you are saying... So from what I can tell, the Church is (if no annulment is issued) would be forcing me to stay with someone that does not want to be with me, and me to her anymore. The fact is that our civil divorce was a nightmare... the kind you read about. There will never be a reconciliation due to the nasty nature of this divorce. I understand the process and why it is done. What I do not understand is how people can decare a vaild or invalid marriage. Only God truly knows what was in the mind of my ex the moment she was asked if she would be married to me for life! It does not make sense for humans to do such a thing. Am I starting a firestorm... maybe.

  • Cathoversal
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#55

By the way, I could look it up, but I’ll just ask our resident experts, 1ke and kage_ar, is the proper term “Decree of Nullity” or “Declaration of Nullity?” Even if you tell me, there is no guarantee that I’ll remember since I tend to get the terms mixed up, but it can’t hurt to ask. :blush:

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#56

This is not accurate. The Church does not and cannot “force” you to stay with someone that doesn’t want to be with you, nor “force” her to stay with you. The Church encourages reconciliation. And sometimes that require a LOT of forgiveness, a LOT of prayer, and a LOT of willpower. On both parts.

The Church recognizes that physical separation is (a) sometimes necessary as when abuse is occurring and (b) sometimes impossible to avoid if one spouse abandons the other and refuses to reconcile.

You are not forced to be with this person in the same household.

If your marriage is valid, you are called to honor the indissoluable bond of marriage. You foresake ALL OTHERS when you marry. That means you cannot enter into a relationship with another person as long as your spouse is alive. Doing so is adultery.

Just because she abandoned the marriage doesn’t mean that the marriage is over. It exists. It is a real thing, indissoluable over time and space. You can live apart. You cannot live with another.

That is too bad. I am sorry for your loss and the suffering you have undergone.

I think that reading through the book Annulment: The Wedding That Was by Michael Smith Foster would really help you.

Remember, God himself gave the Church the authority to bind and loose. It is from God’s authority that the Church receives her own authority.

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#57

[quote="Cathoversal, post:54, topic:193855"]
What I do not understand is how people can decare a vaild or invalid marriage. Only God truly knows what was in the mind of my ex the moment she was asked if she would be married to me for life! It does not make sense for humans to do such a thing. Am I starting a firestorm... maybe.

  • Cathoversal

[/quote]

Jesus left a Church with people in charge for a reason!

Remember, He said about the Church "whatever you bind on earth is bound in heaven and whatever you loose on earth is loosed in heaven". Man alone cannot do it. Man, guided by the Holy Spirit...

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#58

The canons use the term declaration of nullity.

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#59

[quote="Cathoversal, post:54, topic:193855"]
I know exacly what you are saying... So from what I can tell, the Church is (if no annulment is issued) would be forcing me to stay with someone that does not want to be with me, and me to her anymore. The fact is that our civil divorce was a nightmare... the kind you read about. There will never be a reconciliation due to the nasty nature of this divorce. I understand the process and why it is done. What I do not understand is how people can decare a vaild or invalid marriage. Only God truly knows what was in the mind of my ex the moment she was asked if she would be married to me for life! It does not make sense for humans to do such a thing. Am I starting a firestorm... maybe.

  • Cathoversal

[/quote]

I'm sorry for your pain and awful marital experiences. I truly am, just as I'm sorry for my BIL's pain in facing his wife's actions and choices, though he now fully supports them. Having compassion for you does not change the fact that you may be validly married to a woman who may have abandoned your marriage, walked away from your bond and has chosen sin rather than honoring her vows to you.

But, the Church did not make the rules regarding marriage. Christ did. He set the rules that a marriage is for life and that there is no divorce, that marriage is a serious and lifelong commitment and that two become one during the sacrament of matrimony. The Church views a marriage as valid, holds that consent and intent were valid, unless it can be proven otherwise due to some defect. Maybe it will be proven otherwise in your case, a defect after investigation will be revealed at the time vows were exchanged and you will receive a Declaration of Nullity stating such. I think those here at CAF who are cautioning you just want you to be aware that planning a future with someone else before you receive a Declation of Nullity is not a good idea (putting it mildly) because your marriage may be valid and some here have also suggested that slowing down with the idea of a second wedding already might be a prudent choice as well.

Perhaps your priest was deceived by your wife at the time of your convalidation and there was a defect in consent and intent at that time and all this discussion is for naught. But, we don't know that now because nothing is certain until you actually receive your Declaration of Nullity, if you receive such. That is the main point made several times throughout the thread, so asking about receiving pre-marriage counseling while going through the annulment process is a bit premature and maybe even presumptuous if your marriage is found to be valid after all.

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#60

[quote="1ke, post:58, topic:193855"]
The canons use the term declaration of nullity.

[/quote]

Thank you. Now, let's see if I can remember that and how long it will take me before I get mixed up again. :D

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