predestination: believe it or against it?


#1

if you believe it explain BRIEFLY why. if you’re against it, do the same.


#2

I do not belive in predestination. If you really believe it then why try to be a better or even good person because no matter what you do the outcome is predestined. You could live a life of sin and debauchry and if you are predestined to go to heaven in the last minute God would have you repent and be saved or you could lead an exemplary life and in the last minute commit a mortal sin and go to hell. I know both of these could happen but I don’t want to tempt God by thinking at the last minute he will give me a chance to repent.


#3

I don’t believe in predestination. God gave us “free-will”.

I find the concept of predestination to be fatalistic, and it’s depressing. If one subscribes to theology of predestination, what is the purpose of life? If our souls are damned from the start, than what is the reason for our existence?


#4

No chance. how could God will the salvation of all while creating many to go to hell no matter what


#5

Jimmy Akin boldly writes:

Predestination means many things to many people. All Christian churches believe in some form of predestination, because the Bible uses the term, but what predestination is and how it works are in dispute.

here: cin.org/users/james/files/tulip.htm
It’s quite a difficult thing for me to wrap my head around but I do believe in predestination because, as Jimmy Akin says, the Bible teaches it. I have yet to figure out what kind of predestination I believe in, but of course, to be a good Catholic it cannot contradict the doctrine that we all have a free will.


#6

Food for thought:

If we aren’t Predestined, and we have complete libertarian freewill, then did Christ’s death and resurrection actually save anyone, or just make it possible to be saved?

Is it possible that everyone could have turned down salvation and Christ’s work could have been for naught?

Does God fail to save anyone? Is God a failure when he wants to save your neighbor, but the neighbor says no?

Can man thwart God’s plan? If man can, is God truly Sovereign?

If man’s spiritual will is stronger than God’s when it comes to salvation, does that mean that we are more powerful than God in this instance?

Finally, if we get to pick doesn’t that mean we saved ourselves? :smiley:


#7

I believe the Catholic’s view and understanding on Predestination is somewhat different than the protestant view (especially the Calvinist view). I think all Christians believe in some sort of predestination, though we may disagree on what this means.

Those who do not believe in predestination, how then would you respond to one Our Lady’s promise on the Rosary:

Devotion of my Rosary is a great sign of predestination.

In Christ through Mary,
S4ntA.


#8

**[left][size=1]I personally don’t think that predestination exists, but I can see the logic that is used by those who argue for it. I have a friend who is a strong proponent of predestination, and his arguement is that if our salvation is not predetermined by God, then His all powerful nature is eliminated. I can see why one would think that it is necessary for God to be in complete control over a persons salvation to be all powerful, but the reality is that our ability to chose salvation is apart of Gods all powerful nature. God created us with two purposes; to love and to obey. If the option to hate and disobey were not available, then loving and obedience would have no meaning. Furthermore, the only way to have a relationship with God is through the ability to chose. God is still knows the path we are going to take, but he allows us to take the path we chose so that we aren’t forced into a relationship with our Creator. Choice is also reflected in the results at death, either heaven or hell. If predestination did exist, then hell wouldn’t exist. By this I mean that free-will allows our souls to enter into hell, not Gods-will. Gods will would see every soul enter into heaven because that is his intent for everyone of our lives, where as we have the option to either accept or reject heaven. Gods all powerful nature isn’t compromised by allowing us free-will, but rather it is reaffirmed through it. As we grow closer in a relationship with God, we are more capable of being used by him so that His will is done on earth. By working through those who believe in Him, it shows the importance of making the choice to serve Him. God controls our salvation, but it isn’t predetermined at birth. Rather, our salvation is determined by the relationship that we share with God and through that God controls our salvation.[/size] **[/left]


#9

“pre” means before.
the understanding of “pre-destination” should be that "all men are destined, at the creation of his soul, for eternal life in Heaven.


#10

It’s briefly addressed in the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

Jesus’ violent death was not the result of chance in an unfortunate coincidence of circumstances, but is part of the mystery of God’s plan, as St. Peter explains to the Jews of Jerusalem in his first sermon on Pentecost: “This Jesus [was] delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God.” This Biblical language does not mean that those who handed him over were merely passive players in a scenario written in advance by God.

To God, all moments of time are present in their immediacy. When therefore he establishes his eternal plan of “predestination”, he includes in it each person’s free response to his grace: “In this city, in fact, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place.” For the sake of accomplishing his plan of salvation, God permitted the acts that flowed from their blindness.

(Emphasis added)


#11

Even after reading this article on predestination in the Catholic Encyclopedia, I’m still confused. But here it is anyway for your edification…

newadvent.org/cathen/12378a.htm


#12

I believe in Predestination because the Bible clearly teaches it (John 16, Romans 8 & 9, Ephesians 1 & 3, Acts 2, Proverbs 21, Psalm 105 etc.), as well as St. Augustine and St. Aquinas. That’s good enough for me.

I have to point out to all you Catholics who have said you don’t believe in Predestination - you are denying De Fide doctrine of the Catholic Church. Not believing in Predestination is not an option for you. However, you are fortunate enough to have a few acceptable views of predestination to choose from.

Election and Predestination are not fatalism unless you believe that God is not good or that He is arbitrary. It is a mystery known only to God. We know what we have to do and believe as people. How God works in us to bring us to believe and to ultimate glorification is His working not our. Christ working in us. From our perspective we do something. From God’s perspective He is doing something. But Jesus teaches that no one can believe unless the Father draws him.

Think of it this way it is not that God forces you against your will to believe. It is that He makes you willing to believe. He uses means and He prepares the heart. He is our creator, ultimately He determines our existence in time and eternity but He let’s us know if we believe that He is indeed with us. So if you do trust and follow Christ you have no reason to doubt that you are among the Elect if you persevere to the end.

Mel


#13

Mel,

I am sure that you would also agree that it isn’t Gods-will that sends people into heaven. With this line of logic, you are suggesting that God prepares the hearts of those he wants and discards the rest. This notion is to so the least a bit troubling. God prepares the hearts of everyone and a person can chose to follow or not to follow. God knows the path we are going to take and uses in that path.


#14

[quote=creedseebas]if you believe it explain BRIEFLY why. if you’re against it, do the same.
[/quote]

I believe in Predestination, more sepcifically election Ante Praevisa Merita (In other words, God elects you based not on foreseen merits on decisions). This view is repeatedly asserted in various forms by both protestant and catholic theologians throughout the ages.

As for why, I would say the biblical eveidence I have seen, the testimony of numerous theoligians through the last two millenia and various emotional reasons.

ken


#15

I am sure that I do not believe that some are born unable to hear the call of God and will go to hell and that others are born unable to resist the call of God and will go to heaven. This being said, the Bible does teach some form of predestination so I recognize that the sovereign God has the ability to bring to pass his purposes that he has foreordained from the beginning. To do this he will use free will individuals, but he will surely do it.

Were I to ever become a sola scripturist (virtually impossible) I would reevaluate what I think the Bible teaches with regard to strict Calvinistic predestination. It has been my observation that despite my personal distaste for this form of predestination many of the more educated and knowledgeable Protestants are Calvinists because of what the Bible says.

With authoritative teachings to embrace that pull me from predestination, I am very comfortable emphasizing free will over pre-destiny.

Also, I do not care too much if strict predestination is reality. Regardless of which side of the saved line I found myself upon, I believe that I am happier by trying to do the will of God. Whatever misconceptions I may have as to what that will is, it seems pretty clear it involves faith, love, and charity (charity as pure love and as giving). It does not involve pride, self-gratification, and greed. So a belief in predestination will not change the way I live.

Also, since I may be unable to hear God if Calvin is correct, I can be happy with the wonderful life I have been given. I am really content with what I have even if it be God’s will that I spend eternity in hell. I needn’t dwell on this if Calvin is correct for I cannot change it.

And since I would be unable to reject or even move towards accepting God if Calvin is correct, I will just walk as I currently walk, thinking that as I learn more about God it can only help me to know him better. If Calvin is correct all my prayer and study is not going to do anything for me, but more and more each day I pray and study not for me (my rewards) anyway.

Essentially, I do not believe in predestination, but I really do not care to expend energy exploring it. I have a very similar view of atheism BTW.

Charity, TOm


#16

I believe in some form of predestination (as we are obligated to), but my view is still in a formative process. I plan to read Aquinas and Augustine, then do an in-depth study. I tend to favor that predestination refers to the grace to persevere to the end rather than to initial salvation.


#17

[quote=MYSTERIOUS An-D]Mel,

I am sure that you would also agree that it isn’t Gods-will that sends people into heaven. With this line of logic, you are suggesting that God prepares the hearts of those he wants and discards the rest. This notion is to so the least a bit troubling. God prepares the hearts of everyone and a person can chose to follow or not to follow. God knows the path we are going to take and uses in that path.
[/quote]

MYSTERIOUS An-D,

I will give you St. Paul’s answer:

Romans 9: 19-21

You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honored use and another for dishonorable use?

Interestingly he actually anticipates your type of question in vs. 19.

Mel


#18

[quote=TOmNossor]I am sure that I do not believe that some are born unable to hear the call of God and will go to hell and that others are born unable to resist the call of God and will go to heaven. This being said, the Bible does teach some form of predestination so I recognize that the sovereign God has the ability to bring to pass his purposes that he has foreordained from the beginning. To do this he will use free will individuals, but he will surely do it…

Also, since I may be unable to hear God if Calvin is correct, I can be happy with the wonderful life I have been given. I am really content with what I have even if it be God’s will that I spend eternity in hell. I needn’t dwell on this if Calvin is correct for I cannot change it.

And since I would be unable to reject or even move towards accepting God if Calvin is correct, I will just walk as I currently walk, thinking that as I learn more about God it can only help me to know him better. If Calvin is correct all my prayer and study is not going to do anything for me, but more and more each day I pray and study not for me (my rewards) anyway.

Essentially, I do not believe in predestination, but I really do not care to expend energy exploring it. I have a very similar view of atheism BTW.

Charity, TOm
[/quote]

Tom,

I think you misunderstand Calvinism in particular and Augustinian predestination in general. If person is baptized and is a believer and perseveres to the end they should have every confidence. If you were not among the elect you would not be baptized into Christ. Yoe would not believe. Since you do you are in Covenant with God. He gave you faith and He sustains it through Word and Sacrament. This is what Calvin believed. It is what Luther believed and it is certainly what Augustine believed. Any Christian should assume they are among the Elect (after all it is a corporate thing). If you were not you would not care because you would reject Christ. In other words God would leave you on your merry way. But for the Christian election means He intervenes and does not let us go down the path we as sinners desire and richly deserve. He has mercy on who He will have mercy. Seems like you have experienced that mercy to me.

Mel


#19

[quote=Melchior]Tom,

I think you misunderstand Calvinism in particular and Augustinian predestination in general. If person is baptized and is a believer and perseveres to the end they should have every confidence. If you were not among the elect you would not be baptized into Christ. Yoe would not believe. Since you do you are in Covenant with God. He gave you faith and He sustains it through Word and Sacrament. This is what Calvin believed. It is what Luther believed and it is certainly what Augustine believed. Any Christian should assume they are among the Elect (after all it is a corporate thing). If you were not you would not care because you would reject Christ. In other words God would leave you on your merry way. But for the Christian election means He intervenes and does not let us go down the path we as sinners desire and richly deserve. He has mercy on who He will have mercy. Seems like you have experienced that mercy to me.

Mel
[/quote]

I guess I assume too much. Perhaps you do not know that I am a LDS. I believe that I worship the same God that you worship, but most non-LDS Christians are quite willing to tell me that I do not.

Charity, TOm


#20

Biblically: There are many, most notably Deuteronomy 30:19

Logically: God foreknows, but if he determines who is saved, wouldn’t he determine who is born?


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