Predestination, free will, Augustine Pelagian controversy, Catholic views, Calvinism...


#1

Predesination, free will, Augustine Pelagian controversy, Catholic views, Calvinism... let's discuss in a Christ like manner as siblings in Christ. :)


#2

[quote="Christian_Unity, post:1, topic:306046"]
Predesination, free will, Augustine Pelagian controversy, Catholic views, Calvinism... let's discuss in a Christ like manner as siblings in Christ. :)

[/quote]

Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know what to pray for as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words. And he who searches hearts knows what is the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God. And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

God's Everlasting Love

What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, how will he not also with him graciously give us all things? Who shall bring any charge against God's elect? It is God who justifies. Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died—more than that, who was raised—who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or danger, or sword? - Apostle Paul


#3

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.

In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory. In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory. - Apostle Paul


#4

I'd love to, need to set some rules then, are you arguing against free will in this? or rather that we have no say in the decision of our acceptance of the Word of God, and second being that there is much controversy over the use of the word, what is your definition of predestination


#5

[quote="Radyj, post:4, topic:306046"]
I'd love to, need to set some rules then, are you arguing against free will in this? or rather that we have no say in the decision of our acceptance of the Word of God, and second being that there is much controversy over the use of the word, what is your definition of predestination

[/quote]

I believe our will is free to choose what it desires. My view of predestination would be classical Reformed. Let me find a few links for you from my position.

Reformed sources:
monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/onsite/packer/predestination.html

monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/onsite/packer/election.html

Catholic sources:
monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/onsite/augustinenewlife.html

covenanter.org/Predestination/augustin_predestination.html


#6

Pardon me for not having read the links you have posted yet, I am running on supposition biased on conversations I have had with baptist seminarian who holds to reformed theology.

[BIBLEDRB]1 Timothy 2:4[/BIBLEDRB]

My first supposition is that you hold to double predestination, How then can God will that all men be saved, while in practice choosing some for heaven and some for hell.


#7

[quote="Radyj, post:6, topic:306046"]
Pardon me for not having read the links you have posted yet, I am running on supposition biased on conversations I have had with baptist seminarian who holds to reformed theology.

[BIBLEDRB]1 Timothy 2:4[/BIBLEDRB]

My first supposition is that you hold to double predestination, How then can God will that all men be saved, while in practice choosing some for heaven and some for hell.

[/quote]

Yes, I do hold to double predestination. I would respond by saying if God willed that all men to be saved, then all men would be saved. Who can oppose the sovereign will of God? The doctrine of election is found throughout the Scriptures. Can you please read Romans chapter 9 and get back to me on that one. Also, please read Romans 10 and 11 too, since there seems to be elect Israelites and those whom God hardened for the sake of us Gentile believers.


#8

[quote="Christian_Unity, post:7, topic:306046"]
Yes, I do hold to double predestination. I would respond by saying if God willed that all men to be saved, then all men would be saved. Who can oppose the sovereign will of God?

[/quote]

No one can oppose it, CU. 'Tis true, this.

But God's will allows for what Blaise Pascal calls the "dignity of causality".

God's antecedent will always is fulfilled. But God's consequent will has its origin in our choices. We are given the dignity of actually causing events. Such as our salvation. Or our destruction.

You are misappropriating the term "God's will"--sometimes you mean God's antecedent will, and other times you mean God's consequent will.

Best to clarify which one you mean when in discussions such as this.


#9

[quote="PRmerger, post:8, topic:306046"]
No one can oppose it, CU. 'Tis true, this.

But God's will allows for what Blaise Pascal calls the "dignity of causality".

God's antecedent will always is fulfilled. But God's consequent will has its origin in our choices. We are given the dignity of actually causing events. Such as our salvation. Or our destruction.

You are misappropriating the term "God's will"--sometimes you mean God's antecedent will, and other times you mean God's consequent will.

Best to clarify which one you mean when in discussions such as this.

[/quote]

Remember, I qualifed the word will with the sovereign will of God. We come from different theological circles; therefore, we should clarify what we mean for better discussion. Do you believe God has the power and ability to save everyone? If so, why do some perish without Christ?

This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, - 1 Timothy 2:3-5


#10

[quote="Christian_Unity, post:9, topic:306046"]
Remember, I qualifed the word will with the sovereign will of God. We come from different theological circles; therefore, we should clarify what we mean for better discussion.

[/quote]

Indeed.

Do you believe God has the power and ability to save everyone?

Absolute, 100% yes!

If so, why do some perish without Christ?

Because God is a gentleman and will not force himself upon those who find him odious.

This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, - 1 Timothy 2:3-5

Amen!


#11

I have read Romans, several times over. If scripture is in apparent contradiction to its self
then it is not scripture but we who are in error.

[BIBLEDRB]2 peter 3:9[/BIBLEDRB]

If God does not will all men be saved, than he is a Liar. Perhaps John Calvin was arrogant enough to call God a liar, I am not.

[BIBLEDRB]Matthew 23:37[/BIBLEDRB]

There is a barrier between being gathered to God. Our will. Yes God can flatten us to the ground in awe, rather he respects the will of his creation for the sake of love. We have a word for love were only one party is willing.


#12

[quote="PRmerger, post:10, topic:306046"]
Indeed.

Because God is a gentleman and will not force himself upon those who find him odious.

Amen!

[/quote]

That is the classical Protestant Arminian response that has no biblical support or basis. The argument that we are not puppets has no biblical basis either. God always does what He pleases for His own glory, independent from man. He is our sovereign God and His sovereign will always comes to pass.


#13

[quote="Christian_Unity, post:12, topic:306046"]
That is the classical Protestant Arminian response that has no biblical support or basis.

[/quote]

Have you forgotten that you are on a Catholic forum in dialogue with (mostly) Catholics?

We do not propose that our beliefs must be found in Scripture. Rather, our beliefs come from Christ, who provided revelation through 2 channels, Sacred Tradition as well as Sacred Scripture.

The argument that we are not puppets has no biblical basis either.

This is a peculiar proposal.

God always does what He pleases for His own glory, independent from man. He is our sovereign God and His sovereign will always comes to pass.

Amen!


#14

[quote="Radyj, post:6, topic:306046"]
Pardon me for not having read the links you have posted yet, I am running on supposition biased on conversations I have had with baptist seminarian who holds to reformed theology.

[BIBLEDRB]1 Timothy 2:4[/BIBLEDRB]

My first supposition is that you hold to double predestination, How then can God will that all men be saved, while in practice choosing some for heaven and some for hell.

[/quote]

Before we continue, I want to first clarify if you are debating these issue according to official Catholic dogma and doctrine on such matters. If not, then for the record, we should clarify that your view is not offical Catholic doctrine. I do think you should get familar with Augustine and the Pelagian controversy first. Augustine is quite the Catholic Saint who is also embraced by Protestants, especially Calvinists.

Catholic sources:
monergism.com/thethreshol...nenewlife.html

covenanter.org/Predestina...stination.html


#15

[quote="PRmerger, post:13, topic:306046"]
Have you forgotten that you are on a Catholic forum in dialogue with (mostly) Catholics?

We do not propose that our beliefs must be found in Scripture. Rather, our beliefs come from Christ, who provided revelation through 2 channels, Sacred Tradition as well as Sacred Scripture.

Amen!

[/quote]

LOL... thanks for the reminder. We are on the non-catholic forum site. I thought Scripture falls under that category of Sacred written tradition?


#16

[quote="Christian_Unity, post:12, topic:306046"]
That is the classical Protestant Arminian response that has no biblical support or basis. The argument that we are not puppets has no biblical basis either.

[/quote]

The biblical basis is that we were created as rational, free beings who make our own choices, therefore we are not puppets or robots. We were created to love and love cannot exist unless it is freely chosen. Freedom, by its very nature, must allow the alternative choice to love, that being evil.

[quote="Christian_Unity, post:12, topic:306046"]
God always does what He pleases for His own glory, independent from man. He is our sovereign God and His sovereign will always comes to pass.

[/quote]

Yes, and what pleased God was to create rational, free beings so that they might love, knowing fully well that they may not love. He came to save those of us who have failed in loving, thereby accomplishing his will for us.


#17

[quote="Christian_Unity, post:15, topic:306046"]
LOL... thanks for the reminder.

[/quote]

:)

We are on the non-catholic forum site. I thought Scripture falls under that category of Sacred written tradition?

That is indeed one way to look at Sacred Scripture.

Point made: it is inutile to make a claim to a Catholic that states, "But your belief has no basis in Scripture." Firstly, that most likely is not true. Secondly, we don't need to find all of our beliefs in Scripture.


#18

St Augustine is embraced by Calvinists, mostly because during the 1500's if you did not refer your teaching to one of the church fathers you were not given the time of day, however John Calvin was extremely selective on the teachings of St Augustine which he espoused, just like he is extremely selective with what scripture he quotes.

[BIBLEDRB]1 John 4:1[/BIBLEDRB]


#19

[quote="Radyj, post:18, topic:306046"]
St Augustine is embraced by Calvinists, mostly because during the 1500's if you did not refer your teaching to one of the church fathers you were not given the time of day, however John Calvin was extremely selective on the teachings of St Augustine which he espoused, just like he is extremely selective with what scripture he quotes.

[BIBLEDRB]1 John 4:1[/BIBLEDRB]

[/quote]

Radyj,

For my own understanding, what is a RCIA student? Does that mean you are in the process of becoming Catholic, or are you a full member of the Catholic Church? I think you might be surprised on what is allowed as a Catholic to believe on these tough issues. You don't want to fall in the Pelagian camp of things. It also seems the word "semi-Pelagius" is bad too on Catholic Answers Forums.

Catholic sources:
monergism.com/thethreshol...nenewlife.html

covenanter.org/Predestina...stination.html


#20

We Catholics understand 'predestination' differently. As others have said, we have been created with a free will.

So we have to look at the meaning of predestination, not from a man's perspective, but from understanding of what God intended.

He has created us with free will. He has predestined and desirous of all and every human being who has ever been created and will be created, with Him in heaven.

But people have chosen to reject Him. And thus, they are not on the destiny of union with the Lord in the next life.

The universal Christian Church that was the only one that Christ founded, has the correct understanding of predestination. He did not create us as puppets, some will turn out bad no matter what good they do, and others will go to heaven in spite of all the bad they do.


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