Predestination


#1

Could someone who beleives in predestination explain something to me. If you are either going to heaven or hell no mater what you believe or do, why even bother to try? If you are one of the elect, have all the carnal fun you want, because you’re in. If you are doomed no matter what, why even try to live the faith? The way I see it, if you are doomed or not no matter how you live, then live fast, die hard, and leave a pretty corpse.


#2

I don’t believe in it, which is what sparked my interest in learning more about Catholocism. However, there are many reasons why I don’t believe it. For one, scripture literally says that we choose Jesus as our Saviour (Deut. 30:19). Second, if predestination were true, there would be no point in evangelizing, witnessing, and people could just do what they want, like you say. After all, according to those who believe people are predestined, there is nothing to be done on our part to impact our salvation.


#3

[quote=ralphinal]Could someone who beleives in predestination explain something to me. If you are either going to heaven or hell no mater what you believe or do, why even bother to try? If you are one of the elect, have all the carnal fun you want, because you’re in. If you are doomed no matter what, why even try to live the faith? The way I see it, if you are doomed or not no matter how you live, then live fast, die hard, and leave a pretty corpse.
[/quote]

I understand my view is skewed and emotional, but we were taught that God literally and eternally hated us with a deep deep passion. Then one day we changed, “born again” and then God loved us, while still deeply hating, being offended at, cant stand, grieved that He created the rest of the Non Elect world. This deep hatred included all people, babies, sick, disabled, non-Americans and so on. We were walking corpses, spiritually rebellious enemies of God. I know there are explanations for this and apologetics that give reasons for Reprobate and non-Reprobate folks. Being often on the reprobated side, because “there is some scum so low that even God’s grace cannot reach” that person. I think what really is frustrating is the utter futility of living this often breeds in people.

I know this probably sounds pathetic, but I really do not want God to hate me, I don’t want to be God’s eternal enemy and so on. I have often asked, What is the Gospel?


#4

[quote=ralphinal]Could someone who beleives in predestination explain something to me. If you are either going to heaven or hell no mater what you believe or do, why even bother to try? If you are one of the elect, have all the carnal fun you want, because you’re in. If you are doomed no matter what, why even try to live the faith? The way I see it, if you are doomed or not no matter how you live, then live fast, die hard, and leave a pretty corpse.
[/quote]

Read this small section from the Summa Theologica and tell me what you think. Granted, it doesn’t perfectly address your point, but it does talk some of the importance of secondary causes (us) even when the primary cause (God) is set in it’s action.

newadvent.org/summa/102308.htm

ken


#5

Predestination is itself illogical.:whacky: If it is true why are we here at all? This whole life thing is a waste of time? Suicide would get us to the Celestial kingdom or heaven or wherever quickly? Do whatever feels good as you are already saved or not? Ignore major parts of the Bible?:sleep: It proves Sola Scriptura defunct?:clapping:

Calvin and his T.U.L.I.P. formula have helped lead many ignorant of Scripture astray from the truth. We are here today because God gave us ‘free will’.:yup:


#6

[quote=ralphinal]Could someone who beleives in predestination explain something to me. If you are either going to heaven or hell no mater what you believe or do, why even bother to try? If you are one of the elect, have all the carnal fun you want, because you’re in. If you are doomed no matter what, why even try to live the faith? The way I see it, if you are doomed or not no matter how you live, then live fast, die hard, and leave a pretty corpse.
[/quote]

Good Day, Ralphinal

Best place to start is Augustine: IMHO

newadvent.org/fathers/1512.htm

Peace to u, bbas


#7

Thanks to everyone who responded. Let me say that I do not believe in predestination. I am looking for someone who does to tell me why any of it matters if predestination as Cavin saw it is true. Malachi is exactly right about it. Briand, I am sorry that you lived your life with the beleif that God hated not just the sin but the sinner and the world in which we live. No, that is not the answer. God so loved the world that he sent his only begotten son, well, you know the rest. No, predestination as Calvin taught it was beyond illogical and just plain against the Gospel. It is a theology that can only lead to depression and sorrow.


#8

[quote=Malachi4U]Predestination is itself illogical.:whacky: If it is true why are we here at all? This whole life thing is a waste of time? Suicide would get us to the Celestial kingdom or heaven or wherever quickly? Do whatever feels good as you are already saved or not? Ignore major parts of the Bible?:sleep: It proves Sola Scriptura defunct?:clapping:

Calvin and his T.U.L.I.P. formula have helped lead many ignorant of Scripture astray from the truth. We are here today because God gave us ‘free will’.:yup:
[/quote]

Good Day, Malachi

Just because it seem to be illogical to you, it may be in fact from you point of view, but we are all not you.

You are here cause God gave you a free will, when did you make your choice to be here. What aspects of your being did you choose, your height, hair color, your mother or your father, your gender, the size of your feet, you birth date?

Thanks for sharing your thoughts on the issue information is allway helpful from many points of view IMO.

Peace to u,

Bill


#9

[quote=briand]I understand my view is skewed and emotional, but we were taught that God literally and eternally hated us with a deep deep passion. Then one day we changed, “born again” and then God loved us, while still deeply hating, being offended at, cant stand, grieved that He created the rest of the Non Elect world. This deep hatred included all people, babies, sick, disabled, non-Americans and so on. We were walking corpses, spiritually rebellious enemies of God. I know there are explanations for this and apologetics that give reasons for Reprobate and non-Reprobate folks. Being often on the reprobated side, because “there is some scum so low that even God’s grace cannot reach” that person. I think what really is frustrating is the utter futility of living this often breeds in people.

I know this probably sounds pathetic, but I really do not want God to hate me, I don’t want to be God’s eternal enemy and so on. I have often asked, What is the Gospel?
[/quote]

Then how would you explain John 3:16?


#10

[quote=Malachi4U]Calvin and his T.U.L.I.P. formula have helped lead many ignorant of Scripture astray from the truth. We are here today because God gave us ‘free will’.:yup:
[/quote]

Jimmy Akin devotes a whole chapter to TULIP in his book, The Salvation Controversy . Here is a link to it: cin.org/users/james/files/tulip.htm . He does a great job of comparing and contrasting Calvinism to what Catholics believe.


#11

I previously posted this on another thread and feel that this will assist you in your search for an explaination.

I personally don’t think that predestination exists, but I can see the logic that is used by those who argue for it. I have a friend who is a strong proponent of predestination, and his arguement is that if our salvation is not predetermined by God, then His all powerful nature is eliminated. I can see why one would think that it is necessary for God to be in complete control over a persons salvation to be all powerful, but the reality is that our ability to chose salvation is apart of Gods all powerful nature. God created us with two purposes; to love and to obey. If the option to hate and disobey were not available, then loving and obedience would have no meaning. Furthermore, the only way to have a relationship with God is through the ability to chose. God is still knows the path we are going to take, but he allows us to take the path we chose so that we aren’t forced into a relationship with our Creator. Choice is also reflected in the results at death, either heaven or hell. If predestination did exist, then hell wouldn’t exist. By this I mean that free-will allows our souls to enter into hell, not Gods-will. Gods will would see every soul enter into heaven because that is his intent for everyone of our lives, where as we have the option to either accept or reject heaven. Gods all powerful nature isn’t compromised by allowing us free-will, but rather it is reaffirmed through it. As we grow closer in a relationship with God, we are more capable of being used by him so that His will is done on earth. By working through those who believe in Him, it shows the importance of making the choice to serve Him. God controls our salvation, but it isn’t predetermined at birth. Rather, our salvation is determined by the relationship that we share with God and through that God controls our salvation.


#12

[quote=ralphinal]Thanks to everyone who responded. Let me say that I do not believe in predestination. I am looking for someone who does to tell me why any of it matters if predestination as Cavin saw it is true. Malachi is exactly right about it. Briand, I am sorry that you lived your life with the beleif that God hated not just the sin but the sinner and the world in which we live. No, that is not the answer. God so loved the world that he sent his only begotten son, well, you know the rest. No, predestination as Calvin taught it was beyond illogical and just plain against the Gospel. It is a theology that can only lead to depression and sorrow.
[/quote]

Good Day, Ralphina

What do you make of the verses that use the word “predestination” and teach explictly the idea of such? Why does it matter good question I would agree with Augustine on this issue it matters as to the true nature of God as they relate to the “doctrines of Grace” as seen though out Scripture which he was blind to and held in error. He point to God as giving him “teaching” in this reguard, also concedes that some are taught some are not the things of God. I belive he was thankful to God for his teaching and God’s chooseing of him and the Grace God extended to him.

It is understandable that some would see it as depressing and sorrowful, But as God wills he will teach those whom he chooses and correct their paths for God’s glory Alone as seen in the Love he extends to his children.

Augustine:

MOST ILLUSTRIOUS INSTANCE OF PREDESTINATION AND GRACE IS THE SAVIOUR HIMSELF, IN WHOM A MAN OBTAINED THE PRIVILEGE OF BEING THE SAVIOUR AND THE ONLY-BEGOTTEN SON OF GOD, THROUGH BEING ASSUMED INTO ONENESS OF PERSON BY THE WORD CO-ETERNAL WITH THE FATHER, ON ACCOUNT OF NO PRECEDENT MERITS, EITHER OF WORKS OR OF FAITH. THAT THE PREDESTINATED ARE CALLED BY SOME CERTAIN CALLING PECULIAR TO THE ELECT, AND THAT THEY HAVE BEEN ELECTED BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD; NOT BECAUSE THEY WERE FOREKNOWN AS MEN WHO WOULD BELIEVE AND WOULD BE HOLY, BUT IN ORDER THAT BY MEANS OF THAT VERY ELECTION OF GRACE THEY MIGHT BE SUCH, ETC.

Peace to u,

Bill


#13

[quote=ralphinal]Could someone who beleives in predestination explain something to me. If you are either going to heaven or hell no mater what you believe or do, why even bother to try? If you are one of the elect, have all the carnal fun you want, because you’re in. If you are doomed no matter what, why even try to live the faith? The way I see it, if you are doomed or not no matter how you live, then live fast, die hard, and leave a pretty corpse.
[/quote]

I understand what you are saying but no one should be acting morally or doing good for the sole purpose of going to heaven, else you make the same mistake as Cain. You are doing the right things for the wrong reason, and we know that God did not accept Cain’s offering.

We should be dong the right thing out of obedience to God and as an end within itself.


#14

It always has seemed that people make this issue unnecesarily complex. Without delving into the issue of the “ellect”, which I don’t agree with, let me offer an alternative view of predestination, one that fits better into how we understand the Gospels and the nature of time. Is God omnipotent and omniscient (all powerful and all knowing)? If so, doesn’t he know every action we will make before we ourselves do it? This knowlegde of what will ultimately become of us, however, has no affect whatsoever on what our actual choices down here turn out to be. God’s knowledge has no affect upon our salvation; He simply knows our choices before we ourselves do. Remember, God is outside our time… Anyway, those are my two cents for the day on this topic…


#15

[quote=Writer]It always has seemed that people make this issue unnecesarily complex. Without delving into the issue of the “ellect”, which I don’t agree with, let me offer an alternative view of predestination, one that fits better into how we understand the Gospels and the nature of time. Is God omnipotent and omniscient (all powerful and all knowing)? If so, doesn’t he know every action we will make before we ourselves do it? This knowlegde of what will ultimately become of us, however, has no affect whatsoever on what our actual choices down here turn out to be. God’s knowledge has no affect upon our salvation; He simply knows our choices before we ourselves do. Remember, God is outside our time… Anyway, those are my two cents for the day on this topic…
[/quote]

That is how I feel about the issue. I’ve done some research, and a new twist on it is that if you are one of the elect, you will not sin!!! Boy howdy, there you go! Anyway, predestination as a doctrine that teaches that God created some people to go to hell is problematic with scripture. The idea that since God knows where we are headed is another issue, and not the one that I am asking about.


#16

[quote=ralphinal]That is how I feel about the issue. I’ve done some research, and a new twist on it is that if you are one of the elect, you will not sin!!! Boy howdy, there you go! Anyway, predestination as a doctrine that teaches that God created some people to go to hell is problematic with scripture. The idea that since God knows where we are headed is another issue, and not the one that I am asking about.
[/quote]

Good Day,

“I’ve done some research, and a new twist on it is that if you are one of the elect, you will not sin!!!”

Where did you find this, surely this person does not hold to the Biblical and historical views on this issue. I would like to read the source.

“For it is not now the place, but the assemblage of the elect, that I call the Church.” (The Stromata, 7:5)

Bill


#17

It was a book on Calvin that was in the book store. The Essential Calvin I think it was, but I’ll go back and find it. Anyway, the actual teaching was that if you were one of the elect, you could not backslide at all. In other words, though you were tempted, you would not sin. Like you, I totally disagree with that and cannot see where that comes from. I accept the predestination as we should, but I cannot accept that some are created to go to hell and that God does not really love the world as in John 3:16, which Calvinistic predestination in its strictest since teaches


#18

[quote=GloriaDeo]I don’t believe in it, which is what sparked my interest in learning more about Catholocism. However, there are many reasons why I don’t believe it. For one, scripture literally says that we choose Jesus as our Saviour (Deut. 30:19). Second, if predestination were true, there would be no point in evangelizing, witnessing, and people could just do what they want, like you say. After all, according to those who believe people are predestined, there is nothing to be done on our part to impact our salvation.
[/quote]

God uses means. Evangelism, prayer, sacraments etc. You are confusing fatalism with God’s sovereignty.

Mel


#19

[quote=Malachi4U]Predestination is itself illogical.:whacky: If it is true why are we here at all? This whole life thing is a waste of time? Suicide would get us to the Celestial kingdom or heaven or wherever quickly? Do whatever feels good as you are already saved or not? Ignore major parts of the Bible?:sleep: It proves Sola Scriptura defunct?:clapping:

Calvin and his T.U.L.I.P. formula have helped lead many ignorant of Scripture astray from the truth. We are here today because God gave us ‘free will’.:yup:
[/quote]

TULIP was not formulated by Calvin. It came long after his death and was meant to be a response to the charges of the Arminians, not a summary of Calvins beliefs.

Also since when does logic dictate truth? It is not illogical it is a mystery. But I will remind you that Predestination is De Fide in the Catholic Church. God uses free-will in Predestinaton. hey are not opposites.

Mel


#20

[quote=ralphinal]It was a book on Calvin that was in the book store. The Essential Calvin I think it was, but I’ll go back and find it. Anyway, the actual teaching was that if you were one of the elect, you could not backslide at all. In other words, though you were tempted, you would not sin. Like you, I totally disagree with that and cannot see where that comes from. I accept the predestination as we should, but I cannot accept that some are created to go to hell and that God does not really love the world as in John 3:16, which Calvinistic predestination in its strictest since teaches
[/quote]

Calvinism does not teach that one cannot backslide. It does teach that the elect cannot fall completely from Grace and never be restored. The perseverence of th saints means just that, one who is truly elect will persevere to the end. Not that one will never sin again. Calvin never taught anything like that.

Calvin also did not teach that people were created to go to Hell. But I do admit that later hyper-Calvinists did and do teach that. But they are way out of line with Calvin’s thinking.

Mel


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