Predestination


#1

Are some things just preordained? What do you think?:confused:


#2

It depends on what you mean by predestination. If by that, you mean we have no choice, no free will in how things turn out, then no. There is no predestination.

On the other hand, if you mean that God already knows what will happen to us in eternity, i.e., how we will exercise our free will, etc., then yes, there is predestination.

We live from moment to moment. God does not.


#3

I don’t know exactly, but there might be some things that are (as I see it) preordained. Things like Jesus dying for our sins, Mary being conceived without sin, some Saints having special graces as signs for the rest of us.

I don’t believe our lives are preordained, though. Just those few things that God has allowed to give everyone the best chance of salvation.

I think.


#4

We don't believe in predestination the way that Calvinists do, in terms of being predestined to salvation.

I would be interested for someone to explain the interaction of "God's plan for the individual" and free will.


#5

[quote="PaulinVA, post:4, topic:243067"]
We don't believe in predestination the way that Calvinists do, in terms of being predestined to salvation.

I would be interested for someone to explain the interaction of "God's plan for the individual" and free will.

[/quote]

:popcorn:


#6

Predestination is mystery, one that we may not be able to comprehend in this life, but with that said, The Church does not claim to know exactly what it is, but the Church does denounce what it certainly is not and that is the Calvinist view that we are all just puppets on strings and God chooses to save some and damn others since we have no free will.

I've often thought of predestination myself, and some thoughts of mine were that God knows the choices we are going to make before we even make them, so He already knew from before the beginning of the world how many humans would come into existence and how many would choose to serve Him if He infused in them a will to choose to serve Him or serve themselves. And knowing this even before He created the world, God designed the course of salvation History for the sake of those He already knew would choose to follow Him. And this is how God structured such a beautiful and awe striking narrative as the story of salvation, from the fall of man to the coming of the Son of Man on the clouds of Heaven.

for an analogy, a father gives His son two choices for a birthday present; a television or a laptop. The son has the free choice of picking which one he wants and the father will provide it for the son, and even though the son has a choice, the father already knew what choice he was going to make and had already purchased the television set for his son because he knew that that is what the son would want.

So the son certainly had a choice, but the father also had the foreknowledge of what was going to happen and exercised His own will to provide the son with the gift he knew the son would choose.

Nothing takes God by surprise since He is is all knowing and outside time, and He never ceases to provide His grace to any of His children knowing full well that there will be some who follow Him and those who will abandon Him inspite of the fact that provides for them the grace they desire. But the choice of acting on that grace lies with the individual, and God will not overwhelm our wills to the point where He controls everything we do.


#7

I'm not a Catholic (yet)... That's my disclaimer. :) However, I think Catholics can be "Thomists" which are a type of predestinarians (but not Calvinist, which is not allowed). You are allowed to be either arminian or Thomist, I believe.

You could look up Thomism for a detailed explanation, but it is based on the teaching of Thomas Aquinas.

Here is a quote from Wikipedia:

Thomas argues that there is no contradiction between God's providence and human free will:
... just as by moving natural causes [God] does not prevent their acts being natural, so by moving voluntary causes He does not deprive their actions of being voluntary: but rather is He the cause of this very thing in them; for He operates in each thing according to its own nature.
—Summa


#8

I just wonder if some things will happen regardless of how we try to avoid or correct them. :shrug:


#9

HUM interesting. Then how much free will do we really have? It raises a lot more questions. Thanks for your reply.


#10

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