Pregnant at the end of the world?


#1

I’m currently 26 weeks pregnant. What if Jesus came back today? Would my daughter automatically be saved because of a baptism of desire type situation? Would I give birth to her and when? Would she just automatically be given her glorified body?

What about a non-Christian pregnant woman- what are your theories about how the judgment of that baby work?


#2

Hmmm. My theory is that she would probably be saved because you had every intention to have her baptized. Even if you didn’t intend to, I’m still pretty sure that she would be saved because she hasn’t reached the age of reason. (about 7 years old) So yes, if the end of the world were to come today, I am sure she would be saved.


#3

Congratulations for your pregnancy! May you have a healthy baby! Praying for you. As for the rest. Believe in God! He will do what is right!


#4

This is an incredibly interesting question! I’m going to be following this thread to see if anyone can shed some light on this.

:popcorn:


#5

Firstly, congratulations!! Secondly, God is a God of mercy. I believe that your child would be saved because the child would have not had a chance to have been baptized. I believe the same for all young children who die early. God loves them and He is infinitely merciful. Great question!!


#6

There’s a word for it; it is called a “mystery.”

No one can even begin to answer such a question.


#7

I don’t believe the Church has ruled on this question. (The general question being: do the children of Catholic parents who die before birth have baptism of desire.)


#8

Well Matthew 24:9 seems to suggest it might be pretty tough to be pregnant or have an infant child during these times…

"How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers"!

Im assuming this is due to all the chaos and breakdown of society on that day.


#9

I believe everybody is given a definitive decision to make no matter what, immediately prior to the soul’s departure from the body. Because this decision is a supernatural decision - the fate of the immaterial soul - the faculties of the material intellect (the brain) would be irrelevant.

Although the body undergoes a physical process of development and decay, the human soul is created instantaneously and without any stages.So, the soul of a zygote isn’t any less complete than the soul of a person in their prime. The human soul is ‘rational’ in nature, and again, in theology, this is not something that is in anyway dependent on a person’s physical intellect. i.e. in Catholic theology, a person with extremely severe mental handicap isn’t any less ‘rational’ than any other person. ‘Rational’ means the capacity to freely love God.

A person who dies in Original Sin without receiving sanctifying grace would descend into hell. This has already been authoritatively stated by the Lateran Councils. There is no such thing as a baptism by desire on behalf of another person.


#10

I think the only way all unbaptized would go to Heaven is if everybody went to Heaven, period, and we already know through doctrine this is false, because hell is already occupied by the demons (and there are legion private revelation from saints that speak of damned human persons as well).

I believe salvation is a supernatural decision and therefore, unlike with temporal things such as family, wealth, genetics, etc., there is no such thing as being lucky or unlucky. There is such a thing as being blessed (as in receiving more grace), such as a Catholic upbringing, or an upbringing that is closer to the truth than others, but this adds accountability rather than takes it away.


#11

The Church does not know what happens to those still live in the womb, those aborted or miscarried and those infants born but not baptised.
The Church simply entrusts them to the mercy of God.


#12

Baptism of Desire has nothing to do with what parents want or don’t want. Because neither sin nor virtue is inherited from parents (read Ezekiel 18).

However, the Church teaches that it is reasonable to have hope for infants and unborn children who die without baptism. This is based on God’s desire for all humans to be saved, his special love of children, and his merciful nature.

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/cti_documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20070419_un-baptised-infants_en.html

Contrary to what some will say, it is in fact possible to go to Heaven without being baptized. Those who die before baptism but wanted/were in the prossess of procuring a baptism are considered to have Baptism By Desire. Those who are unbaptised but die for their faith in God are considered to have been Baptised By Blood. Finally, those who never had opportunity to recognize God but who nonetheless lead virtuous lives are considered Righteous Unevangelized/Virtuous Pagans and are permitted to go to Heaven


#13

That is a lie.

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/cti_documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20070419_un-baptised-infants_en.html

[quote=INTERNATIONAL THEOLOGICAL COMMISSION: THE HOPE OF SALVATION FOR INFANTS WHO DIE WITHOUT BEING BAPTISED]The conclusion of this study is that there are theological and liturgical reasons to hope that infants who die without baptism may be saved and brought into eternal happiness, even if there is not an explicit teaching on this question found in Revelation. However, none of the considerations proposed in this text to motivate a new approach to the question may be used to negate the necessity of baptism, nor to delay the conferral of the sacrament. Rather, there are reasons to hope that God will save these infants precisely because it was not possible to do for them that what would have been most desirable— to baptize them in the faith of the Church and incorporate them visibly into the Body of Christ.

[/quote]

vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p2s2c1a1.htm

[quote=Catechism of the Catholic Church]1258 The Church has always held the firm conviction that those who suffer death for the sake of the faith without having received Baptism are baptized by their death for and with Christ. This Baptism of blood, like the desire for Baptism, brings about the fruits of Baptism without being a sacrament.

1259 For catechumens who die before their Baptism, their explicit desire to receive it, together with repentance for their sins, and charity, assures them the salvation that they were not able to receive through the sacrament.

1260 "Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery."63 Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity.

1261 As regards children who have died without Baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them. Indeed, the great mercy of God who desires that all men should be saved, and Jesus’ tenderness toward children which caused him to say: "Let the children come to me, do not hinder them,"64 allow us to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who have died without Baptism. All the more urgent is the Church’s call not to prevent little children coming to Christ through the gift of holy Baptism.
[/quote]

It’s open-and-shut that the Catholic Church says you are wrong.


#14

Be careful calling others liars… :wink:

TK421 said that there is no such thing as a baptism by desire on behalf of another person.

Your quotes deal with baptism of desire as it applies to catechumens – who wish themselves to have been baptized – as well as those, wishing to be baptized themselves, who give their lives “for the sake of the faith.”

There’s nothing in your quotes that addresses “desire for another to be baptized.”

It’s open-and-shut that the Catholic Church says you are wrong.

Umm… then would you mind demonstrating where the Church addresses desire for another (not oneself) to be baptized? Cause… you haven’t. :shrug:


#15

Look more closely at his post and at the part of it which I underlined. He said that everyone who dies without baptism goes to Hell, I quoted two official church documents that prove this untrue.


#16

You completely ignored the point Gorgias made. Address it, don’t evade it.

You also misstated the poster’s words; he did NOT say that “everyone who dies without baptism goes to Hell”.


#17

I’m not evading anything because his talk about “baptism of desire” isn’t what I objected to. In fact I already stated my views on that in this thread (your own desire to be baptised can save you, but not your parent’s desire to baptise you).

The part I objected to was when he said “A person who dies in Original Sin without receiving sanctifying grace would descend into hell”. Sanctifying Grace is usually used as a shorthand for baptism, so I assume that’s what he was talking about here. In response, I quoted official church articles which state that people can go to Heaven without being baptised.


#18

Hi, Stella!

…that’s is quite a conundrum… to us!

…here’s how God Works:

[FONT=“Garamond”][size=]5 Before I formed thee in the bowels of thy mother, I knew thee:

(Jeremiah 1:5a)

8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts: nor your ways my ways, saith the Lord. 9 For as the heavens are exalted above the earth, so are my ways exalted above your ways, and my thoughts above your thoughts. 10 And as the rain and the snow come down from heaven, and return no more thither, but soak the earth, and water it, and make it to spring, and give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater: 11 So shall my word be, which shall go forth from my mouth: it shall not return to me void, but it shall do whatsoever I please, and shall prosper in the things for which I sent it. (Isaiah 55:8-11)

26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmity. For we know not what we should pray for as we ought; but the Spirit himself asketh for us with unspeakable groanings. 27 And he that searcheth the hearts, knoweth what the Spirit desireth; because he asketh for the saints according to God. (Romans 8:26-27)
…so He that Commanded Adam and Eve to be fruitful and multiply would not make void His Word and Promise… consider too that Jesus was very specific about the Hour:

40 Then two shall be in the field: one shall be taken, and one shall be left.

(St. Matthew 24:40)
… so you and your child would be Saved and while the unbeliever would be left behind/rejected the child in her womb would also be Saved!

…yet, we do not know exactly what would transpire… could there be a world-wide persecution of the Church right before the Parousia?

…it’s possible… so Jesus’ comments could very well by directed at such an event:

19 And woe to them that are with child, and that give suck in those days.

(St. Matthew 24:19)

Maran atha!

Angel

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#19

In my opinion the Church teaches this way because she does not know what decision this soul would make as to TK421’s post.
True enough that a soul without sanctifying grace would descend into hell. Would not God knowing these souls (as to the op) give them the grace needed to gain heaven?


#20

I think we put too much thought into these types of situations. While no one knows for sure what would happen, I believe I have enough faith in Jesus to say he would of course be merciful and forgiving to an unborn child. Just read the Gospels. Look at how easily he forgives known sinners and brings them home.

Really, anyone who thinks a baby still in the womb who dies without being baptized is not going to heaven, needs to read the Bible a bit more, and have a little more faith. :slight_smile:


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