Priests who switch denominations

There has be a fair bit of publicity about former Episcopal Priests who become either lay Catholics or Catholic Priests-indeed the former Episcopal Bishop of our Diocese of SW Forida became a Catholic Priest-

what is less publicized is that there is a constant trickle of former Catholic Priests who become Episcopal Clergy-of course there is Father Cutie of MIami and recently a former Franciscan Priest became Priest in Charge (not Rector = permanent) of a small Episcopal Church just NOrth of us-they are not reordained but accepted into the Episcopal Clergy

What does the Catholic Church say regarding these Priests who leave and join another Church ( there are about 200 in the Episcopal Church) are they still cosidered Priests-it seem that many Catholic think there must be a fatal flaw in them-Fr Cutie has tripled his Congregation -

thoughts?

We have a man in one of our sister churches who was a Catholic priest for many years. No commentary about that, just letting you know.

We pray for them…that they find peace with God in whatever path they have chosen.

My bishop was a former Catholic monastic (left before taking final/perpetual vows).

Father Cutie is hardly a good example of anything. He was a very popular radio/TV preacher to the Hispanic community in South Florida and the Caribbean Basin until a picture of him at the beach, lying on a blanket alongside a young woman wearing a skimpy Bikini bathing suit, appeared on the front page of the Miami Herald newspaper.
Rather than submit to church discipline he went over to the Episcopalians the next day.
It caused quite a scandal in South Florida!

You will always get an element of “Judas” is it the male menopause I wonder. Or is the Martin Luther syndrome ( well he ran off with a nun and did not tell his Superiors )

Either way, the poor priests need our prayers constantly, they have to answer to God for a lot especially for there actions, hopefully God Willing they will die in the arms of the Catholic Church, its just very sad.

We don’t say enough prayers for Our Priests. Many women find them a temptation and try to take them of the priestly road, like a challenge. Such people are imbued by the Devil to do such an evil thing. If I saw a woman trying this one, I would give her such a dig in the ribs, this is my Jewish side coming out.

Wow, I don’t think I could insult that many disparate groups of people in one post if I tried. :smiley:

You will always get an element of “Judas” is it the male menopause I wonder. Or is the Martin Luther syndrome ( well he ran off with a nun and did not tell his Superiors )

LOL. Dr. Luther married Katharina in 1525, 5 years after his excommunication from the Roman Catholic Church, and stayed a faithful husband for 21 years. Are excommunicated members still required to report to their superiors years after their excommunication? Also his superior in the Augustinian order Johann Staupitz released my hero Dr Luther from the Augustinian order in 1521. Does your church require folks who have been released from their order to still gain the orders permission to do something?

Yes. Released from the order means released from the order, not released from vows of celibacy. Think of it like you joining the Lutherans, then becoming a pastor - if you resign you are no longer a pastor, that doesn’t mean you lose your designation as a Lutheran. Of course, Luther - believing as he did that the Pope is the anti-christ - I suppose, wouldn’t consider himself bound… btw, was that before his vows, before he was excommunicated, in the midst of his vows, when?

He saw the threefold priestly vows as simply human works, and the vow of celibacy he saw as unbiblical. Certainly his views on the issue emptied many monasteries and freed many from unbiblical vows. Even so, it’s silly to criticize Luther for “running away with a nun”. This issue was considerably controversial even in the sixteenth century and my hero addressed it:

But many still come with the old argument—and waste a lot of breath on it—that it is dishonorable to make a vow of celibacy to God and then not keep it, since even in the eyes of the world he who fails to keep his vow is branded as a faithless and dishonorable perjurer. Some of the nobility, in particular, work themselves blue in the face with such twaddle, most of all those who are supposed actually to have made many vows and who babble a lot about vows but have made little attempt to keep any, who have never in their lives thought seriously about trying to keep the least bit of what they so solemnly vowed to God in baptism, nor of acknowledging that they still owe it. The log in their own eye still blinds them so effectively, and they see so clearly the speck in other men’s eyes! [Luke 6:41–42].

They are rude, hardened hearts, which neither perceive themselves nor allow others to tell them, like the smiths’ anvils (as Job says); they will have their mad way! How often must I say that an unfulfillable vow, one that is contrary to God’s word, is no vow at all and should be forsaken? It is like the man who says, “My mother vowed that I should be a bishop.” Is a man who vowed to commit adultery or to kill an innocent man supposed to keep his vow? Must I keep my vow if I have vowed to cling to the sky and to ride on sunbeams or float on the clouds? If I were to ask them that, I should think they would have to say: No, the first vow is wrong and must not be kept, the second is foolish and will fail of itself.

So I say in this case too: We were all created to do as our parents have done, to beget and rear children. This is a duty which God has laid upon us, commanded, and implanted in us, as is proved by our bodily members, our daily emotions, and the example of all mankind. Now unless God himself performs a miracle, if you vow celibacy and remain unmarried you do exactly the same as he who vows adultery or something else which God has forbidden. Since your vow is an impossible and foolish one, we can see and understand why it remains unfulfilled of itself, and why unchastity only becomes so much the more rampant and shameless that it is unspeakable. And yet those stubborn fellows want to compel the emotions: a man should not feel his masculine nature, nor a woman her feminine nature.

Luther, M. (1999, c1962). Vol. 45: Luther’s works, vol. 45 : The Christian in Society II (J. J. Pelikan, H. C. Oswald & H. T. Lehmann, Ed.). Luther’s Works (45:154). Philadelphia: Fortress Press.
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So every person who made a vow which he later can’t fulfill, although initially of his or her own free will and volition, is under no commitment at all; and if he or she can fulfill it, is committing sin akin to adultery??

Look, I like a good. coherent, logical argument even when I don’t agree with it, but your above Luther quote has more holes than swiss cheese and any uneducated child would be able to destroy this “doctor” who you see as your hero.

No. There is no biblical vow of celibacy, and God has bound no one to such a vow. Since its unbiblical, there is no compulsion to keep such a vow except that which man places upon himself. Luther simply removed that yoke he had placed upon himself. And thousands followed in his footsteps, and liberated themselves from self imposed yokes.

Look, I like a good. coherent, logical argument even when I don’t agree with it, but your above Luther quote has more holes than swiss cheese and any uneducated child would be able to destroy this “doctor” who you see as your hero.

I could do without the snark, thanks.

I see. And Dr. Luther determined independently that the yoke he wasn’t bound to anymore was not biblical, and involved no other authority but God and himself? Why did he then initially make the vow, along with the vow to obey to the proper authority of the entire Christian Community - the Bishop; but when “unyoking” himself, saw that recourse to this proper authority representing the entire Christian Community was unnecessary? Or did it become unnecessary because the proper authority didn’t agree with him?

Even Evangelicals, reading the Bible for themselves, see the Biblical vow of Celibacy as a calling:

christianitytoday.com/ct/2008/september/20.47.html

Yet Dr. Luther did not? And what of his spiritual descendants in Europe and even the Americas - who for a time had and I believe still do have - Lutheran nuns and monastic orders?

facebook.com/pages/St-Augustines-House-Lutheran-Monastery/124803940876095

experiencewts.wordpress.com/2013/01/14/lutheran-nuns/

I see. And Dr. Luther determined independently that the yoke he wasn’t bound to anymore was not biblical, and involved no other authority but God and himself?

No, anyone who reads the scriptures can plainly see that there is no such vow as a vow of celibacy.

Why did he then initially make the vow, along with the vow to obey to the proper authority of the entire Christian Community - the Bishop; but when “unyoking” himself, saw that recourse to this proper authority representing the entire Christian Community was unnecessary? Or did it become unnecessary because the proper authority didn’t agree with him?

The proper authority put a price on his head and declared that someone could kill him without incurring legal penalty. Putting a price on someone’s head is unchristian and unbiblical, and unbecoming of a bishop or Christian. I would disobey the person too if they put a price on my head.

So am I to understand from Dr. Luther’s words that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Holy Apostle Paul, the Blessed Virgin Mary, the 144,000 virgins and all the other virgins of the Bible violated God’s commandments by not engaging in carnal intercourse and, with the exception of the Blessed Virgin, not marrying? Even though Scripture extols virginity as a higher state than marriage? And how is it exactly that a vow of celibacy made before the Lord does not oblige even when celibacy is a good and noble thing and hardly beyond our ability to keep?

When thou shalt vow a vow unto the Lord thy God, thou shalt not slack to pay it: for the Lord thy God will surely require it of thee; and it would be sin in thee. But if thou shalt forbear to vow, it shall be no sin in thee. That which is gone out of thy lips thou shalt keep and perform; even a freewill offering, according as thou hast vowed unto the Lord thy God, which thou hast promised with thy mouth.

There is no evidence that any of these folks took a vow of celibacy.

How do you know there is none?

Just to point something out, many people, women especially, took vows unwillingly during the middle ages. Some were shipped off to convents by their parents because they could not afford a dowry for multiple daughters. Some women from wealthy families were forced into monasticism to keep them from claiming their inheritance rights.

We need to remember that given the context of Europe in the sixteenth century, where women had very few rights and protections, not every person in a monastery was there by choice.

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