Pro Choice/Abortion “Catholics”


#236

I don’t mean to mislead anyone. If you don’t want to read my posts, I understand. Most Catholics don’t. I consider myself a seeker of truth. I’m not going to blindly follow the institutional dogma or the deceptive historical background of Christianity. When Catholicism is wrong or doesn’t make any sense, I’m going to say so.

This does NOT mean I don’t believe in Christ’s message. I was raised a very orthodox Catholic, but - over time - realized that historical and theological foundation of Christianity (and ANY religion) is not only flawed but horribly misleading and prone to misuse by leaders that prey on the gullible to do evil things to maintain power. The sex abuse scandal, is of course, a modern example.

I guess I am more of a Deist that believes in the message of Jesus Christ. Think Thomas Jefferson. I know this seems terrible to you, but I don’t care if Jesus was a real person or not. I believe in his message, and that’s how I am going to live my life. I’m fine if you don’t consider me a Catholic. I’ve spent 40+ years in Catholic schools, with Catholic parents, with orthodox relatives and friends. I’m just at the point where I’m sick of being told to shut up and not ask questions.


#237

Indoctrination as a child is darn hard to break.
But read my message above. Hopefully that explains it.
Thanks - fair comments. If I completely gave up on Christ I wouldn’t be here.


#238

I don’t know why this is so hard to understand. I don’t believe in abortion but I also don’t believe in forcing my opinions on someone else.
Keep in mind most liberals hate me - I think abortion should be strongly regulated and available only for a short time-frame. But I also know that if you make abortion illegal, you make the problem worse.

My biggest beef is with Republicans. They are liars that have tricked Christians to think they are “pro-life”. Everything else they propose is “anti-life”. Health care. Education. Safe water and clean air. Women’s rights. Medical research. Supporting the poor. It goes on and on.


#239

I am willing to differentiate the historicity of Jesus and the institutional validity of the Church from the message of Christ. I don’t base my faith on a book written 2000 years ago, translated, hacked up, interpolated, and altered over centuries. If a piece of evidence were discovered proving Jesus was not a real person, I would not change my lifestyle in the slightest.


#240

But regardless, your is still a subjective opinion. And scientifically it’s not entirely correct. Consider, for example, stem cells or even identical twins. A stem cell can become two people days after conception. Is the new twin “not alive”?

My point is that, even if I am mostly on your side, declaring your subjective opinion as correct without any thought on compromise may satisfy you in terms of your faith, it is NOT going to SOLVE anything in a human society. The thing that frustrates me about the Catholic position on abortion is not that it is wrong per se, but that it is a PERSONAL moral framework that fails completely to actually solve the problem of abortion when applied to society as a whole.


#241

It doesn’t. BUT - the world isn’t perfect. If babies popped out the moment of conception, there would be no issue. But we’ve got this 9 month problem.
Saying a woman MUST carry a baby to term from the moment of conception is not compatible with a free society. A fascist or communist society, sure. But not a free one.
How can someone say “Too bad, you had sex, deal with it” solve anything?
Do you want to solve this problem or not?
“Pro-life” and “pro-choice” are misnomers. Pro-life people are really pro-birth, and pro-choice people are really pro-abortion. If you don;t see that, just look around.

Why can’t we actually work towards giving women OPTIONS so that they CHOOSE life?

The answer is limited but supported abortion rights as a last resort with multiple social programs to reduce unwanted pregnancies and provide viable long-term care for pregnant women and their babies.


#242

Of course the newer twin is also alive, and a separate human being. However, does the fact that the newer twin came into existence at a later point mean the earlier twin did not exist?

And do we consider the newer twin a separate human being from the earlier one? If so, how can we consider a single unborn baby a part of his mother-s body which she can dispose of at will?

The fact that a few human beings come into being after conception does not mean the first did not. Clearly it is conception which potentiates both lives, each of which are separate and distinct from each other and from their mother.

Maybe you could explain this; I do not understand how conception as a starting point for human life is subjective. It seems to be more inconvenient.

There are certain things on which compromise is impossible. Things either exist or don’t exist; there is just no room for compromise about reality.

What precisely is the problem of abortion that needs to be solved?


#243

Thanks LC! I’m glad you’re here.


#244

So you don’t believe in Catholicism, or Christianity for that matter. I’m curious why you call yourself Catholic, if you don’t mind my asking. Just a q.


#245

Liberty is not absolute. Do you consider Europe fascist or communist? They certainly force women to carry babies to term after certain points.

Liberty is just one value among several important values. Creating a just society means balancing values so that the most important ones trump the less if there’s an irreconcilable clash but all are respected fully wherever possible. Liberty is not more important than life.


#246

It is scientifically correct to say life begins at conception. Stem cells, sperm cells, cancer, etc are not unique “life”, nor can they “become people”, nor can they inherently develop into each stage of the growth of a human being. There is nothing subjective about it, it’s fact. Understandable that the pro abortion argument strongly rejects this, as they know it causes most of their other arguments to completely collapse. But it doesn’t make it any less factual.

The problem of abortion isn’t solved by making it legal any more than solving the problem of opioid abuse by making that legal.

Liberty is not an argument for anarchy. There’s a reason why laws are in place that might curtail absolute “freedom” for the good of society.


#247

I like to use an example of conjoined twins when those in favor of abortion rights insist that dependency is a reason why an unborn child is not a human being. There is a clear dependency there on each other for life. But it’s clearly not valid to say that this dependency makes them non-persons or not human beings. So this is a non argument.


#248

Incorrect.

Always amazed to see how widely this caricature of conservatism and Republicans is so accepted by the left and MSM. It would be no different than me saying that all liberals are commies who hate Christianity.

Conservatives do not believe generally that big government can adequately address society’s needs nor that big government and high taxes is essential to do so. It is a fallacy non sequitur to suggest that that this means conservatives don’t want to address society’s needs at all.


#249

I think this is a pretty cherry picker definition of a free society. Even the most libertarian of libertarians say that one of the roles of government is to protect life. If the government protecting people from murder is facist I’m a whole hearted facist.


#250

The woman should not have been engaged in sex out of wedlock and her abortion is murder, so she is in double jeapordy and will for certain be condemned to Hell without prayer, penance, fasting, and sacraments.


#251

Way too judgemental for my comfort level. There can be all kinds of mitigating circumstances, not to mention God’s infinite mercy. I would be careful with making blanket statements of condemnation like that. Furthermore, that isn’t what the church teaches. Even with most conservative of church teaching she would only need to go to confession and repent for her actions there. As long as she is truly remorseful, God does not require any of the other things you listed.


#252

Umm, the bolded is probably not within your sphere of competence or influence.


#253

?
This is nothing but relativism. The moral principles are not based on anything objective. The Church holds that human life is sacred at all stages, and so it doesn’t matter who has control of another, or what political system you live under, one’s person’s freedom to act does not give them license to kill innocent human beings.
Freedom and license are not the same thing.

This is the same relativism that allows all sorts of barbaric evil to happen. It’s cloaked in language that seems open and tolerant, but it’s at the expense of defenseless human beings.


#254

You are the OLD Republican party. The new Republican party is dominated by radical populists. It’s focus is anti-immigrant, anti-minority, protectionist, anti-environment, anti-trade, high deficit, high spending. Even the tax cuts are focused on the rich. The removal of regulations has been solely to benefit the rich, not help the people. Trump has destroyed the Republican party. Even the things he brags about are wrong. For example, he has increased effective military spending by 3% versus Obama. If you include GDP increase, that’s basically keeping it the same.


#255

This is not the argument. The position of pro-choice is that YOU cannot force YOUR opinion on someone else. Pro-choice is not trying to convince you to change your opinion. A society where YOU dictate morality is not a free society. A society that professes freedom of religion yet dictates laws based on the subjective designs of one such religion is hypocritical. If it were mandated that all Down Syndrome babies had to be aborted, pro-choice people would be against THAT.

You believe that life starts at conception. You want everyone in our society to share that view. Yet, even Republicans do not believe this. Why are not social security cards issued at conception? Why are not tax breaks afforded to mothers as soon as they become pregnant? I do not have a beef so much with the Catholic position as with the Republican one. However, I do feel that FORCING people to be pro-life is the wrong approach. I would rather convince them with facts, social programs, health care, adoption assistance, free birth control, and so on. Your approach doesn’t solve the problem.

Please note that I also believe life starts at conception. I am not pro-abortion. But I will not FORCE that opinion on others.


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