But from a Catholic morality perspective, life does begin at conception. That explains how Catholics can acquire those morals. As for Catholics “imposing” those morals on others in a secular society, there is no good argument why a Catholic cannot reference his own particular morals when advocating for civil social policy. It happens all the time with all sorts of morals. People vote on all sorts of morals-based issues, such as: Should there be a social safety net? Should there be laws that enforce copyright and patents? Should there be mandatory conflict of interest rules for judges? What should the minimum wage be? Do we have an obligation to mitigate global warming? Should there be a statute of limitations on rape prosecution? Should a person be obligated to testify against himself? Should alcohol be banned at fraternities? And many many more. By and large (BnL™ 2057) people reference their own sense of right and wrong to decide how to vote on these and many other issues. And here is the really strange part: No one questions whether such an application of one’s personal morals is inappropriate when coming to a decision of how to vote on these various issues! So why make that criticism of Catholics when they do just what everyone else does, namely, reference their own sense of right and wrong when deciding civil policy? Therefore it is entirely appropriate for Catholics to advocate for the rights of the unborn, regardless of how they came to that position.,
@LateCatholic I am disgusted by Republican Party stances too, regarding the poor, but find your tolerance of abortion even more disgusting. A response to Republican extreme individualist economic policies is not even more extreme Democrat individualist policies. It seems your religion is informed by your politics not the other way around. I gave you the benefit of the doubt in the priest abuse debate but now I see you support something far worse than even sins of lust. I will pray for you that you stop getting your truth from a world that you ought to be evangelizing and evangelize it with the truth of God instead.
PS: Both Democrats and Republican policies are sinfully based on prioritizing the lesser over the most serious. A just society prioritizes life always above liberty and private property. Period. So if it is the poor you care about, consider the poor children who don’t even have a right to continue their lives according to people like you. I don’t think you’re a Catholic any more after reading this terrible post!
And by the way, do you realize that your stance, based on “don’t control women’s bodies” is far more extreme than even the most liberal European countries? They certainly “control women’s bodies” by limiting abortion to the earliest weeks. According to such an evil stance as yours, a pregnancy of 9 months could be terminated just fine, because “we can’t control a woman’s body.” What an extremist position this is.
Why did you divulge so quickly into Democrats and Republicans? There may be good cause for voting for a pro choice candidate, but it’d better be grave.
If you agree there should be limits then you too are limiting options. You see, this like many legal problems involves the conflict of rights. Does ones right to autonomy top all other rights? All sorts of laws say what you can and can’t do with your body. I can’t sell my kidney. I can’t kill myself. People under 18 can’t smoke. The law is very much in the business of saying what we can and can’t do to ourselves. Even more so when it comes to others. I can’t use my body to shoot people. Or sell drugs. Or by booze for minors.
Why then, should a woman’s right to choose trump a baby’s right to live?
You are sensitive to racism and classism:
So am I. I think it’s better for poor people to be alive than dead. I look at abortion and see the most effective eugenics program that has ever existed. I think the world would be a better place if the 900 black babies that are killed each day were alive.
That we need to find ways to help the poor and historically disadvantaged doesn’t imply we would be better if they were dead.
There actually.is something special about conception, for that is the moment a new human comes into existence. Before your conception, you did not exist, bit who you are now can be traced back to that very moment, when DNA from your father entwined with DNA from your mother to create the individual you.
How could any other point be chosen? At all later points, the baby has already been in existence before,; it is only at conception that life begins.
I am genuinely confused. So LateCatholic not only supports abortion, he or she also denies the historical truth about Jesus? I was led to believe in the other thread that we were conversing as fellow Catholics and now I feel like it was kind of misleading. Well, maybe it was my mistake. I should not assume based on username and discussions about interior church matters.
Their profile says it all.
I’ll ask again. Why not?
And yet…you write an awful lot here.
Kind of makes me think about the TAMU Aggies (who ALMOST beat Clemson - great game.). Left the Big 12 years ago. And yet…the first 4 words of their fight song is STILL about…you guessed it the University of Texas. (And - the largest thread on their biggest forum is about - Texas. Seriously folks - I don’t make the news - just report it)
Sort of like that guy you know. Broke up with his girlfriend 3 years ago. TOTALLY over it. And yet…he still brings her up all the time.
LC - seriously - have you REALLY broken up with Jesus? Cause it sounds like you still kinda like him, no?
I agree with Rubee.
LateCatholic, if you are not really a Catholic (and I’m sorry but “Limited Catholicism” doesn’t cut the mustard), you should not be running around a Catholic forum with a deceptive username that makes people who read think you’re a Catholic.
This should clarify >>>>>
Truth is from God a confusion is from…?
I don’t mean to mislead anyone. If you don’t want to read my posts, I understand. Most Catholics don’t. I consider myself a seeker of truth. I’m not going to blindly follow the institutional dogma or the deceptive historical background of Christianity. When Catholicism is wrong or doesn’t make any sense, I’m going to say so.
This does NOT mean I don’t believe in Christ’s message. I was raised a very orthodox Catholic, but - over time - realized that historical and theological foundation of Christianity (and ANY religion) is not only flawed but horribly misleading and prone to misuse by leaders that prey on the gullible to do evil things to maintain power. The sex abuse scandal, is of course, a modern example.
I guess I am more of a Deist that believes in the message of Jesus Christ. Think Thomas Jefferson. I know this seems terrible to you, but I don’t care if Jesus was a real person or not. I believe in his message, and that’s how I am going to live my life. I’m fine if you don’t consider me a Catholic. I’ve spent 40+ years in Catholic schools, with Catholic parents, with orthodox relatives and friends. I’m just at the point where I’m sick of being told to shut up and not ask questions.
Indoctrination as a child is darn hard to break.
But read my message above. Hopefully that explains it.
Thanks - fair comments. If I completely gave up on Christ I wouldn’t be here.
I don’t know why this is so hard to understand. I don’t believe in abortion but I also don’t believe in forcing my opinions on someone else.
Keep in mind most liberals hate me - I think abortion should be strongly regulated and available only for a short time-frame. But I also know that if you make abortion illegal, you make the problem worse.
My biggest beef is with Republicans. They are liars that have tricked Christians to think they are “pro-life”. Everything else they propose is “anti-life”. Health care. Education. Safe water and clean air. Women’s rights. Medical research. Supporting the poor. It goes on and on.
I am willing to differentiate the historicity of Jesus and the institutional validity of the Church from the message of Christ. I don’t base my faith on a book written 2000 years ago, translated, hacked up, interpolated, and altered over centuries. If a piece of evidence were discovered proving Jesus was not a real person, I would not change my lifestyle in the slightest.
But regardless, your is still a subjective opinion. And scientifically it’s not entirely correct. Consider, for example, stem cells or even identical twins. A stem cell can become two people days after conception. Is the new twin “not alive”?
My point is that, even if I am mostly on your side, declaring your subjective opinion as correct without any thought on compromise may satisfy you in terms of your faith, it is NOT going to SOLVE anything in a human society. The thing that frustrates me about the Catholic position on abortion is not that it is wrong per se, but that it is a PERSONAL moral framework that fails completely to actually solve the problem of abortion when applied to society as a whole.
It doesn’t. BUT - the world isn’t perfect. If babies popped out the moment of conception, there would be no issue. But we’ve got this 9 month problem.
Saying a woman MUST carry a baby to term from the moment of conception is not compatible with a free society. A fascist or communist society, sure. But not a free one.
How can someone say “Too bad, you had sex, deal with it” solve anything?
Do you want to solve this problem or not?
“Pro-life” and “pro-choice” are misnomers. Pro-life people are really pro-birth, and pro-choice people are really pro-abortion. If you don;t see that, just look around.
Why can’t we actually work towards giving women OPTIONS so that they CHOOSE life?
The answer is limited but supported abortion rights as a last resort with multiple social programs to reduce unwanted pregnancies and provide viable long-term care for pregnant women and their babies.
Of course the newer twin is also alive, and a separate human being. However, does the fact that the newer twin came into existence at a later point mean the earlier twin did not exist?
And do we consider the newer twin a separate human being from the earlier one? If so, how can we consider a single unborn baby a part of his mother-s body which she can dispose of at will?
The fact that a few human beings come into being after conception does not mean the first did not. Clearly it is conception which potentiates both lives, each of which are separate and distinct from each other and from their mother.
Maybe you could explain this; I do not understand how conception as a starting point for human life is subjective. It seems to be more inconvenient.
There are certain things on which compromise is impossible. Things either exist or don’t exist; there is just no room for compromise about reality.
What precisely is the problem of abortion that needs to be solved?
Thanks LC! I’m glad you’re here.
So you don’t believe in Catholicism, or Christianity for that matter. I’m curious why you call yourself Catholic, if you don’t mind my asking. Just a q.