Pro "gay-marriage" Catholics

Hey guys, so this is an issue that has been bothering me for some time. It is essentially, the Homosexuality/Gay Marriage debate within the church. I’ve debated with people over this issue many times, and it continues to be probably the most difficult one to argue. It wouldn’t bother me so much if it were just non-Catholics, but a LOT of my friends who are Catholic are vehemently pro Gay-marriage, and some even defend homosexuality (the “well as long as they’re happy” argument :P)

This is very difficult, because many of these people are good friends, and people I greatly respect. But how can I explain it to them in a way that might get through to them? For one thing, I can’t even remotely understand how they could hold that opinion, yet pretty much any argument against Gay Marriage just sounds negative. The “Gay Rights” movement has done a pretty good job propagandizing people. And I think why it’s effective is because it’s positive. When we argue that it’s just wrong, and immoral and unnatural, it just sounds negative.

I guess what I’m wondering is, is there any way to explain this to Catholics that doesn’t sound like we’re just trying to constrict and control people, and something that maybe sounds a bit more positive?

I truly share your frustration. Like Bernadette Soubirous said, “My job is to inform, not to convince.” You may have to adopt this as your motto when you deal with others (especially Catholics who SHOULD adhere to Church teaching but don’t) on this issue. Remember, even if every single Catholic on the planet believed this lie, the Church can never change her teachings. You might try pointing that fact out. They will either “A” take it to heart, or “B” further distance themselves from the Church, bringing about what was probably inevitable anyway. Remember, you can’t convince, only the Holy Spirit can convince them. (I am in no way advocating trying to push people away from the Church.)

I don’t know if this is how the Church views the matter, but…

I consider it as such. The sexual organs are capable of creating life. For this reason, they are holy in God’s eyes. As we do not put ads in a Bible, do not use the sacramental wine for a party, do not use the altar for a bed, so we do not use the sexual organs for a purpose they were not created for (or fantastize about using them)

But basically, trust in God. Have your friends read what the NT says about homosexuality (and any inappropriate form of sexuality, for that matter). Then have them read like, Jeremiah or something, and see if they recognize how they are no different from the same ones Jeremiah excoriates.

Remind them, of how unpopular Jesus was. Remind them that “there is a way that seems right to a man, but it’s end is the way of death,” “be not wise in thine own eyes,” “there was no king in Israel in those days; each man did what he thought right.”

And at the end of the day, remember that you’re probably not going to convince them; but never abandon your trust in the Lord. Like Jeremiah, though it is excruciating at times to trust in His ways, it is the only thing to do.

If only it were this simple. Unfortunately if these people are dissenting from the teachings of the Church, appealing to the authority of scripture may not be very effective. Many people are not pro-gay because of a lack of theological or religious teaching, but because they have subscribed to a world view (propagated by our culture) that they truly like and want it to be true.

There is no debate in the Church on this.
The Church teaching is that homosexually (meaning sexual acts between same sexes) is a sin a grave matter and it also teaches that marriage is between man and woman. These are teachings which are infallible and will never change.
Any Catholic who rejects these teachings commits heresy and is in a state of mortal sin. End of story unless such people repent.

For the first time in quite awhile I think the Church is forced to advocate something that has somehow managed to be more socially awkward than Hell. This might sound pessimistic, but I agree with the poster that said you need to focus more on informing and don’t hold up expectations for conversion or reversion. This issue of accepting homosexual behavior is going to be a long and protracted siege and I’m not personally holding my breath for the tide to rapidly turn. The light at the end of the tunnel is that the LGBT movement is currently transitioning from the position of victim to the position of juggernaut, and Christ’s strength is made perfect in our weakness.

Not a very encouraging post in the short term, but that’s my 2 cents.

See my bolded: if these people are willing to publicly dissent from the Church, there isn’t going to be **any authority **that convinces them. All you can do is to stay firm in your own knowledge that you stand with the Church.

I came to the conclusions along time ago. The Church says it is wrong because it does not produce children. What about women who can’t have kids? I am lesbian and have a kid. The sperm got put in me so who cares if a guy or a syringe was at the other end. There are plenty of babies born to hook ups and loving ways.So basics married people get a pass to do anything they want. Not everyone should baby parents. The world is over populated as it is. We can’t even take care of people who are here.

That position is very difficult to debate.
Because even though homosexuality doesn’t directly lead to procreation, so many people are born with this orientation…and so many homosexuals are wonderful parents…and so many heterosexuals cannot produce children…so those are just three of many good reasons to argue that even though it doesn’t “naturally” produce kids, homosexuality can still be seen as “natural” itself.

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First, you need to understand how the propaganda works in this case. It’s not positive so much as playing on people’s emotions. Step One: Use vague words that only apply to LGBT people so as to emotionalize it. These words need to sound fair and agreeable to the average person, like Inclusive and Diversity.

Inclusive means gay sex as gay marriage is your only choice.
Diversity means gay sex as gay marriage is your only choice.

If you do not agree, the NEGATIVE appears.

You are called a bigot. Are you? I think not. That emotional word means “you are bad for not accepting gay sex as gay marriage.”

You have an irrational fear of homosexuals. You are homophobic. Is that rational? No. Would you run and hide if you found out that your neighbor Bob was gay?

You are filled with hate. Yes, you. I don’t think that’s true either.

So no, it’s not all positive.

But people have been led to believe that gay couples are just like straight couples. A little logic here:

Man + Man
Woman + Woman
Man + Woman

Which combination is the only way to bring the next generation of human beings into the world?

So, why do gays need to get married? To make gay sex acceptable as a sexual norm. Prior to gay marriage, gay couples were living together and having all the sex they wanted. So why was their personal choice on the ballot? Why do they need my permission to live how they want? They don’t.

But that whining noise you hear is the sound of deception. From a Catholic friend of mine: “They’re not hurting anyone.” Really?

wdtprs.com/blog/2013/04/what-homosexual-marriage-advocates-are-really-after/

"As a former liberal Anglican priest, now happily at home in the Catholic Church, I learned the hard way how slippery the slope of doctrinal relativism is when a once-orthodox church begins to take marching orders from secular culture. I was essentially run out of the denomination because I dared to stand up for the sacramentality of one man-one woman marriage. The sad story of Pastor Stephen Boisson in Canada, thankfully flagged by Mark Shea, was prefigured in the American Episcopal Church beginning in 2003. Unless Catholics wake up and smell the coffee, their “progressive”bishops could start sounding like this:
virtueonline.org/portal/modules/news/article.php?storyid=14561

"I’m here to tell y’all, do not underestimate the virulence of the far-left gay rights ideologues. For twenty years my “Progressive” allies and I tried to “make nice” to my gay brothers and sisters in Episcopal Clergy circles. We conceded so much in the name of “acceptance, toleration, and inclusivity” that we forgot about the divinely-revealed nature of Christian marriage. Many of my dear friends who are gay were happy to be treated with Christian compassion and dignity, which of course we are bound to do in our baptismal covenant. But once they tasted power, a select few of them upped the ante into a purely politicized ecclesial power grab. They are smart, politically disciplined, well-connected, and they understand fundraising. Scarier than that, they will literally lay down their lives for their cause. The radically decentralized polity of Anglicanism, its aversion to authority, and especially its beautifully high culture was no match for their scorched earth tactics. The sad state of the Episcopal Church’s doctrinal fragmentation speaks for itself. Check this sobering chronicle of what doctrinal collapse looks like: stalban.org/anglican5.htm

And read this:

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20030731_homosexual-unions_en.html

Two keys or two locks have no functional purpose, but a lock and key do. Treat all people with Same Sex Attraction with respect, but look at all who accuse straights of homophobia, bigotry and hate concerning gay marriage with suspicion. It’s the blanket emotional attack on people who know, ever since man walked the earth, that a man and woman were made for each other. And if Bob and Steve want to live together and do whatever, how is that my business - unless they shove it in my face and your face 24/7.

Read. Understand. Have compassion. But don’t let anyone convince you that gay marriage is real. No matter what the law says, it’s not real.

Peace,
Ed

Thank you, Ed. You’re spot on!

There is no issue or debate in the Catholic Church on Same-sex Attraction (SSA)/Homosexuality or Gay lifestyle or Gay “Marriage”. The Church’s Magisterial teaching is authoritative…clear…well thought-out and very well presented.

There are many Catholics who simply choose not to follow their Catholic Faith…they forget that the very first response to the gift of faith is …obedience. How can a Catholic who wants to draw close to and be in union/communion with Obedience Himself…by being disobedient. Obedience is not something…it is someone…a person…Our Lord Jesus Christ…who exhibited absolute obedience to the Father’s will…to His Righteousness (remember what Jesus told John the Baptist when John said…I should not be baptizing you Lord…but you should baptize me).

So there is a lot of disobedience…a lot of heretical statements…a lot of heterodoxy “sugarcoating”…by many Catholics…but Christ himself, His vicar on Earth, the Pope, and the Magisterium (all bishops of Particular Churches in communion with the Pope)…have been very clear…there really is no debate or issue about it in the Catholic Church.

Philippians 2: 6-11
Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition (RSV-CE)

6 who, though he was in the form of God,[a] did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied himself,** taking the form of a servant,[c] being born in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in human form he humbled himself and became obedient** unto death, even death on a cross. 9 Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name which is above every name, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

So through the Church and its Apostolic successors…we hear what Obedience Himself demands of us…

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[quote]Matthew 16:16-19

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Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition (RSV-CE)

16 Simon Peter replied, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”[a] 17 And Jesus answered him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jona! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven. 18 And I tell you, you are Peter,** and on this rock[c]** I will build my church, and the powers of death[d] shall not prevail against it.[e] 19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven,[f] and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven****.”

Luke 10:1; 10-16

Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition (RSV-CE)

  1. After this the Lord appointed seventy[a] others, and sent them on ahead of him, two by two, into every town and place where he himself was about to come.

10 But whenever you enter a town and they** do not receive you, go into its streets** and say, 11 ‘Even the dust of your town that clings to our feet, we wipe off against you; nevertheless** know this, that the kingdom of God has come near.’ 12 I tell you, it shall be more tolerable on that day for Sodom than for that town.**

Woes to Unrepentant Cities

13 “Woe to you, Chora′zin! woe to you, Beth-sa′ida! for if the mighty works done in you had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago, sitting in sackcloth and ashes. 14 But it shall be more tolerable in the judgment for Tyre and Sidon than for you. 15 And you, Caper′na-um, will you be exalted to heaven? You shall be brought down to Hades.

16 “He who hears you hears me, and he who** rejects you rejects me**, and he who rejects me rejects him who sent me.”

All for your consideration…lastly, stay close to your friends…pray for them…don;t argue with them…speak the Truth in charity…leave the rest up to the Holy Spirit. They have a problem…not you.

Pax Christi

Here is a go-to resource…

USCCB – Promotion And Defense Of Marriage

Frequently Asked Questions About The Defense Of Marriage

The Meaning of Marriage & Sexual Difference (11 Q&A)

The Gift of Children (9 Q&A)

The Common Good & Human Dignity (14 Q&A)

Religious Liberty (7 Q&A)

usccb.org/issues-and-action/marriage-and-family/marriage/promotion-and-defense-of-marriage/frequently-asked-questions-on-defense-of-marriage.cfm

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It concerns me that gays are now threateniing to sue the church for the right to get married on hallowed ground.

If a large group of clergy and parishioners were to form up and march with dignity behind a cross and a banner supporting man/woman marriage, at the next Mardi Gras (in Australia a gay pride celebration in Sydney), how would that be received by the scantily clad gyrating throng? I don’t think the organisers would allow their participation somehow.

Accepting gay marriage has opened the door to all kinds of marriages. I read the next will be Muslims saying it is ok to marry a young girl and they will base it on religious reasons. If the court disagrees they will be charged with religious intolerance and I see the court letting it happen. Marriage to a 1 year old. It happens in other countries and now will happen here.

By the way. I am married and in vetro is not allowed for married couples so that is not the church saying just gays can’t do it. I could not do it. It would be wrong for a doctor to use a syringe on me. My hubby and I did not go there.

It’s the church’s job to get us to heaven even if what they teach is unpopular. Saying the church wants to get you to heaven and gay sex won’t sounds unfair but God made the rules and we need to abide by them, even if we are a hetero couple and can’t do some things either.

LOl, I don’t think we would want to march in such a parade. Forming another parade at another time would be good though.

[quote]There is no issue or debate in the Catholic Church on Same-sex Attraction (SSA)/Homosexuality or Gay lifestyle or Gay “Marriage”. The Church’s Magisterial teaching is authoritative…clear…well thought-out and very well presented.

There are many Catholics who simply choose not to follow their Catholic Faith…they forget that the very first response to the gift of faith is …obedience. How can a Catholic who wants to draw close to and be in union/communion with Obedience Himself…by being disobedient. Obedience is not something…it is someone…a person…Our Lord Jesus Christ…who exhibited absolute obedience to the Father’s will…to His Righteousness (remember what Jesus told John the Baptist when John said…I should not be baptizing you Lord…but you should baptize me).

So there is a lot of disobedience…a lot of heretical statements…a lot of heterodoxy “sugarcoating”…by many Catholics…but Christ himself, His vicar on Earth, the Pope, and the Magisterium (all bishops of Particular Churches in communion with the Pope)…have been very clear…there really is no debate or issue about it in the Catholic Church.

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I totally agree. If you are truly a Christian, then you obey ALL of God’s laws, not just the ones you want to. I’m sorry, but Homosexuals who say that they are Christian are lying to themselves. I’m sorry if I sound negative, but that’s just too bad. What they are doing is against so many things God has said about sexuality and marriage, it would take too much space to quote them all here.

I do not and will not apologize for saying what I know to be the Truth. I hold steadfast in what the Bible says. Not only is it a sin and unlawful in most religions, but it is also unlawful in most governmental civil law.

If people, who are supposedly of the Christian faith, are saying they accept SSA, Homosexuality, and Homosexual marriage, then they have fallen way off the track and completely derailed. They need our prayers just as much as the SSAs and Gays (where did the term “gay” come from anyway?).

I am not being judgemental, I am just holding to my beliefs and faith that God is always right, no matter what. I pray for those who have fallen or are lost to the wonderful love, grace, and mercy of the Lord Our God. God will do the rest.

Some men and women are sterile or past childbearing age, but their union is still oriented toward procreation. They could choose to adopt and provide a parentless child with a mother and father, just as they would have done if they had biological children. Also, not everyone is called to be a parent, so some married couples who find themselves incapable of producing children may be called to other things, as there is no requirement for infertile couples to adopt. They could be spiritual mothers and fathers. Work with homeless people, hungry people, single mothers and crisis pregnancies (pro-life movement), teach faith formation classes, etc.

Yes, some babies are conceived through donors or one-night stands, but those are also sins. Donors separate the unitive from the procreative, and purposely deprive a child of a mother and/or a father. And one-night stands are the sin of fornication and also deprive the child of a father (not a good chance the woman will find the man again after their hookup).

Children have a right to know (and preferably live with) both biological parents. When that is not possible, adoptive or stepparents can step in. Knowing where they come from gives them a sense of identity. And having a relationship with mom and dad allows the child to relate to both genders in a nonsexual, adult way, which will help them when it’s time for them to date and find a spouse. The way the father treats the mother (and vice versa) is important because it shows the kids what a relationship is supposed to look like. Men should treat their wives like queens, and women treat their husbands like kings, so their children will have the highest standards and won’t settle for anything less in a relationship.

I have run into this alot aswell, and yes, I believe there is a way to positively explain this to Catholics so that they understand. I would like to share what I say to them with you. :slight_smile:

I find the same sex marriage debate isn’t about whether it can or can’t be done, because obviously it can be done, It’s about whether it should or shouldn’t be done, it’s a morality debate and I come to the conclusion that it should not be done along with the Catholic Church and I will explain why.

My first question would be, do you believe in God? if no, than same sex marriage can neither be right/wrong along with practically everything else, because without God there is no morality, it’s just mere opinion enforced by might.

The first thing that comes to mind with the existance of God, is that it would seem quite clear that God created us male and female (as we didn’t evolve from nothing) and as Genesis states.

We can also refer to Matthew 19:4-6 when Jesus was teaching about divorce, he also affirmed this.

**Matthew 19:4-6

4 Jesus answered, “Don’t you know that in the beginning the Creator made a man and a woman? 5 That’s why a man leaves his father and mother and gets married. He becomes like one person with his wife. 6 Then they are no longer two people, but one. And no one should separate a couple that God has joined together.” **

So thus the question comes into mind, are the sexual acts of homosexuality sinful as the Catholic Church says? and following from the above it would clearly be sinful, because it means to use the bodies organs in a manner in which they were not designed to be used for.

Now it comes to advocating this kind of sexual immorality for our homosexual brothers and sisters with same sex marriage, if we know it to be sinful, would we be loving our homosexual brothers and sisters by advocating this kind of sexual immorality for them?

Many Christians say something like “I don’t believe in sacramental same sex marriage, but I don’t have any objections to civil same sex marriage.” However this is like me saying “As a Catholic I believe theft is immoral” and than turning around and encouraging my neighbours to steal.

SSM supporters also say “well God created homosexuals too” in which they are absolutely right, he did, he created me as well and I too as a heterosexual have many immoral desires aswell, so should we all just throw our hand up in the air, recklessly give into our every desire and say “If God didn’t want me to do this, than he wouldn’t have given me the desire to do it?”

Others also say, that while they could believe that the sexual acts of homosexuality are immoral, they could still support/advocate the legalisation of civil same sex marriage as a kind of live and let live kind of thing, but there are several problems with that.

For starters, as I said before, if we know it to be sinful, would we be loving our homosexual brothers and sisters by advocating sin for them? God is not God only for those who believe in him.

Secondly, Because homosexuality is a consensual act, this is why it is not criminalised and no one is arging for homosexuality to be made illegal, remember same sex marriage does not legalise a homosexual union, It publicly recognises a homosexual union as equivalent and equal to a heterosexual one, which would mean to ignore the basic differences between a man and a woman, their sexual compatibility and complementarity with one another.

Marriage being between one man and one woman is a moral truth written into natural law itself.

My question I would put to them would be, what do you think marriage is? and if marriage can mean anything, than pretty soon it means nothing, I for one know that marriage does not mean anything, however people certainly do want it to mean anything when the truth doesn’t suit them.

Please continue to next post -

Continued from above post -

Also when it comes to Leviticus -

We all know this one -

Leviticus 18:22
22 Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.

However it also say’s this -

Leviticus 20:13
13 “‘If a man has sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They are to be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.

:eek:

Now lets look at what Leviticus say’s about Adultery -

Leviticus 18:16
16 “‘Do not have sexual relations with your brother’s wife; that would dishonor your brother.

However it also say’s this -

Leviticus 20:10
10 “‘If a man commits adultery with another man’s wife—with the wife of his neighbor—both the adulterer and the adulteress are to be put to death.

:eek:

Now lets look at how Jesus fulfills the old testament Matthew 5:17-20 here -

**John 8:3-11

3 The Pharisees and the teachers of the Law of Moses brought in a woman who had been caught in bed with a man who wasn’t her husband. They made her stand in the middle of the crowd. 4 Then they said, “Teacher, this woman was caught sleeping with a man who isn’t her husband. 5 The Law of Moses teaches that a woman like this should be stoned to death! What do you say?”

6 They asked Jesus this question, because they wanted to test him and bring some charge against him. But Jesus simply bent over and started writing on the ground with his finger.

7 They kept on asking Jesus about the woman. Finally, he stood up and said, “If any of you have never sinned, then go ahead and throw the first stone at her!” 8 Once again he bent over and began writing on the ground. 9 The people left one by one, beginning with the oldest. Finally, Jesus and the woman were there alone.

10 Jesus stood up and asked her, “Where is everyone? Isn’t there anyone left to accuse you?”

11 “No sir,” the woman answered.

Then Jesus told her, “I am not going to accuse you either. You may go now, but don’t sin anymore.” **

The sexual acts of homosexuality should be seen likewise.

When it comes to SSM supporters and especially the media, I think they are very clever at lumping the homosexual and the acts of homosexuality together, so when people speak against the sexual acts of homosexuality, they are taken for speaking against homosexuals, which is simply not true in many cases, If someone came here to speak against homosexuals, I would be quick to refute them.

It’s like someone speaking against fornication or promiscuity and being accused of speaking against heterosexuals, being acccused of “denying who they are” or something.

Homosexuals are no different to any one of us, not one person doesn’t have an immoral desire, the morality of the act doesn’t change simply because of our desire for it, like I said, that’s like throwing our hands up in the air, giving into our every desire and saying “If God didn’t want me to do this, than he wouldn’t have given me the desire to do it.”

**Galatians 3:26-29

26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

29 And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.**

There is also neither heterosexual nor homosexual.

And finally as Pope Francis said, the CCC explains it well.

**Catechism of the Catholic Church

2357 Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex. It has taken a great variety of forms through the centuries and in different cultures. Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity,141 tradition has always declared that "homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered."142 They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved.

2358 The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. [They do not choose their homosexual condition; for most of them it is a trial.] This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God’s will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord’s Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.**

I Hope this helps you. :thumbsup:

God Bless

I apologise for the length, Thank you for reading
Josh

Didn’t we go through this on your previous thread?

forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=805035

It’s not because such a union cannot produce children, it’s because such a union provides the environment for mortal sin, which is the sexual acts of homosexuality and it’s sinful because God created a man and a woman, given their sexual compatability and complementarity, he designed sexuality to be used a certain way, thus the sexual acts of homosexuality means to use the bodies organs in a manner in which they were not designed to be used for.

Please see below quotes from previous thread.

&

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God Bless

Thank you for reading
Josh

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