Prohibited book list & Condemned Apparitions


#1

Does anyone have a bona fide source on the web for a complete list of the Catholic Church’s prohibited book list to 1966?

Does anyone know of a similar Doctrine of the Faith Approved list of false apparitions and Locutions and a compilation of same from Local Bishops, (as some apparations are condemned at the local level)?

Does anyone out there know a source of certified lists for these things?

I am not asking these questions out of interest or curiosity. I am trying to bring the truth to some of my friends who have become emeshed in false private revalation like Medjugorje, Kingdom of the Divine Will, Poem Of the Man God, Lady of All Nations etc…

Part of the problem in trying to impart the truth to these people is that over the years through these false teachings, they have been instructed to discern with the heart, (only). reasoning and logic are not accommodated and if you come to them with reasoning and logic they attack you, questioning your purity and say such things that you should be like a little child and accept. This is why I need black and white, bona fide, Church approved and sealed evidence.

Please help,

Luke


#2

You can find a searchable database of all books ever placed on the Index librorum prohibitorum at this site. The date-range indicates if a particular work was still on the Index when it was abolished.

Does anyone know of a similar Doctrine of the Faith Approved list of false apparitions and Locutions and a compilation of same from Local Bishops, (as some apparations are condemned at the local level)?

All apparitions which are condemned happen at the local level. The Pope or the CCD doesn’t condemn apparitions (though they may decline to approve them for worldwide veneration - but only after the local bishop has approved them. But “not approving” is not the same thing as condemning). When a local Bishop condemns something (such as what happened with Medjugorje), it is simply ignored at higher levels. Thus, no “official” record of condemned apparitions exists.


#3

You will find a pretty good list of approved and prohibited apparitions of Jesus and Mary here: apparitions.org/


#4

[quote=LukeQ]Does anyone have a bona fide source on the web for a complete list of the Catholic Church’s prohibited book list to 1966?

Does anyone know of a similar Doctrine of the Faith Approved list of false apparitions and Locutions and a compilation of same from Local Bishops, (as some apparations are condemned at the local level)?

Does anyone out there know a source of certified lists for these things?

I am not asking these questions out of interest or curiosity. I am trying to bring the truth to some of my friends who have become emeshed in false private revalation like Medjugorje, Kingdom of the Divine Will, Poem Of the Man God, Lady of All Nations etc…

Part of the problem in trying to impart the truth to these people is that over the years through these false teachings, they have been instructed to discern with the heart, (only). reasoning and logic are not accommodated and if you come to them with reasoning and logic they attack you, questioning your purity and say such things that you should be like a little child and accept. This is why I need black and white, bona fide, Church approved and sealed evidence.

Please help,

Luke
[/quote]

Hello Luke,

I see your problem. However, the Church does not require the faithful to believe in the apparitions, but they just approve them. As for “Our Lady of all Nations” that apparition was recently approved, though it has been disaproved of in the past because of its devotional prayer. I see nothing wrong with it as long as people don’t misinterpret the prayer. The Vatican has ordered the Bishop to remove the controversial part of the prayer pending further investigation. Here’s an article on that specific apparition: spiritdaily.com/ourladyallnations1.htm


#5

Thanks David F. - Your link to the db containing the Prohibited list is a great start. There is a skill needed in searching on it, particularly when dealing with foriegn languages. I recommend this link to all.

Thanks Shoshana - your link to the apparitions site is extensive indeed and is an excellent place to start researching. I thank you for this :slight_smile: Caution needs to be practiced in the links that they give for apparations they don’t flag as either approved or unapproved. Their listing of Medjugorje is an example of this where two Local Bishop Investigations and a Bishops Council ruled against anything of a supernatural nature, (FACT) but the links given are pro Medj, dismissing the Bishop’s ruling as negative, a subjective viewpoint, ignoring FACT and the designated authority of local Bishops by the Vatican in these matters.

Thanks Roman Army - The case of “Lady of All Nations” is a perfect example of why there needs to be a list of approved and unapproved apparitions. As you know, there has been much correspondence between the local bishops and the Vatican over a period greater than 60 years. The for and against camps in this matter refer to the currrent local bishop vs the original local Bishop and the Congregation of the Doctrine Of Faith statements. Hence, there is confusion to the actual Church position. The for and against argument in this case is good material for a specific thread on the matter but its relivence on this thread is to present an example of confusion in the “faithful” on these matters. A compiled list of all apparitions would go along way in resolving the confusion out there in the pews. ie: classified under:

  1. Approved
  2. Unapproved at local Bishop level
  3. Unapproved at Vatican level - which I think LoAN was: 25 1974 & April 26, 1987 - Cardinal Ratzinger - refer link below
  4. Pending
  5. Non-pending

Point 3 and the link supplied below illustrate my point. The writer puts forward a persuasive case but it is by far not an accademic piece of writing illustrated by his biased and unsubstantiated hypothesis in his conclusion. So, how do we read his evidence of the Congregation of the Doctrine Of Faith speaking out against LoAN in 1974 & 1987. How do we get to the original source?

Lady of All Nations
unitypublishing.com/Apparitions/AmsterdamEngels.htm

In short, I have witnessed distortion of truth in both for and against camps in unapproved apparitions. I seek the truth because people I care for are being hurt by false doctrine and classic examples of disobiedience in some of these apparitions.

Luke


#6

[quote=Roman_Army]Hello Luke,

I see your problem. However, the Church does not require the faithful to believe in the apparitions, but they just approve them. As for “Our Lady of all Nations” that apparition was recently approved, though it has been disaproved of in the past because of its devotional prayer. I see nothing wrong with it as long as people don’t misinterpret the prayer. The Vatican has ordered the Bishop to remove the controversial part of the prayer pending further investigation. Here’s an article on that specific apparition: spiritdaily.com/ourladyallnations1.htm
[/quote]

But, Roman Army, this apparition hasn’t been approved or commended by the Holy See, has it? I understood that it was just the local bishop.


#7

JKirkLVNV - this is exactly what I mean by the confusion out there.

From what I understand of LoAN:

  • The original local bishop condemned it
  • The congregation of the Doctirne of Fath confirmed the bishops findings from 3 investigations in 1974 & 1987
  • The current local bishop has opened up a new partial examination on the *fruits only * and has passed the contraversial prayer.

Do you see the rampant confusion here??? I am not intending to debate LoAN or other apparitions here - I just want to show the inconsistancies of knowlege out there in the pews and what possibly can be done about it.

If my bullet points are correct, one would think that the the Vatican in concurence with the first local bishop would overide the stance of the current local bishop.

The key problem in all of this is an attachment of the heart to apparitions at the expense of true discernment through reasoning and logic and using the teaching of the magisterium on these matters - test everything and be obiedient.

Related threads on this board:
Messages
forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=68888

Addiction to unapproved apparitions
forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=67412

Luke


#8

Another link for the Index:

odan.org/forbidden_books.htm

If people are being hurt by the confusion over apparitions - Our Lady of All Nations, Medjugorje (for instance) - can’t they attend to something more constructive, more edifying, and far less rancorous ? ##


#9

Gottle Of Geer - thanks for your extra link. From all the links I have found a wealth of information and I will summarise a list of links from where these haver led me over the next week or two for those who are interested. Thank you all for your support. :slight_smile:

If people are being hurt by the confusion over apparitions - Our Lady of All Nations, Medjugorje (for instance) - can’t they attend to something more constructive, more edifying, and far less rancorous ? ##

Let me explain by what I mean about people being hurt by these false apparations.

  1. Priests - who will not support devotions to these unapproved apparitions are persecuted and labeled as “Liberals” by the deceived followers of these apparitions

  2. Fellow parishionsers - like me, are judged as impure for not blindly accepting the “messages” because they are led to believe that discernment is only through the heart. The messages confound the intelligent and raise up the lowly they say. Discernment, however, is about applying faith and reason (the interlect and the heart activated through the Grace of God). Last night I just lost a family of friends who have adopted KDW, Fr Gobbi and Medj as their main spiritual source. They think I have lost my faith and am not pure all because I said I was reserved about the authenticity of Medjugorje. Personally, I am very upset at losing them.

  3. Family members - Disception spreads to non complient family members who are alienated and looked up on as apparition conversion targets, secret discussions and secret prayer groups are conviened unbeknown to the uncomplient family member. I know of two families in my parish where this is causing marital friction.

The behaviour is cult like and they are either unable or unwilling to change at the present time.

My observance of these occurences is over a 12 year period.

Luke


#10

[quote=LukeQ]Thanks Shoshana - your link to the apparitions site is extensive indeed and is an excellent place to start researching. I thank you for this :slight_smile: Caution needs to be practiced in the links that they give for apparations they don’t flag as either approved or unapproved. Their listing of Medjugorje is an example of this where two Local Bishop Investigations and a Bishops Council ruled against anything of a supernatural nature, (FACT) but the links given are pro Medj, dismissing the Bishop’s ruling as negative, a subjective viewpoint, ignoring FACT and the designated authority of local Bishops by the Vatican in these matters.
[/quote]

Actually… a priest in my parish just went on a trip to Medjugorje… eh. Anyway, do you have any links to information on the Bishops’ Council and the Investigations that disapproved of it? I’d appreciate it. Thanks.

-Rob


#11

Hi Rob - I’m in the process of compiling documentation on the major alleged apps some of which I have in book format. I have got somewhere, links to original documents.

Here is a link to a cataloge of Medjugorje documents and their translation:
members.tripod.com/~chonak/documents/medj_index.html

AND
mdaviesonmedj.com/Bp%20Peric%20statement%20for%20Medj%20website.doc

Luke


#12

We should always look into these sort of things and make sure they are understood correctly and approved.

I am talking to a missionary from a non-denominational church who has given me a video, (in exchange for one of my videos) which is called messages from heaven.

Here is a link to a Catholic review of it.
davidmacd.com/catholic/mary_messages_from_heaven_video_movie_documentary.htm

What is a shame is how some of these things are twisted to portray Catholics as Mary worshipers, and blatantly believing things against the Bible. This video is pretty mis-leading, and is being used out there to confuse and attack Catholics. The people on the video act like this is all official Catholic teaching.

So it is very important to inform yourself and educate others as much as possible

God Bless
Scylla


#13

[quote=LukeQ]Hi Rob - I’m in the process of compiling documentation on the major alleged apps some of which I have in book format. I have got somewhere, links to original documents.

Here is a link to a cataloge of Medjugorje documents and their translation:
members.tripod.com/~chonak/documents/medj_index.html

AND
mdaviesonmedj.com/Bp%20Peric%20statement%20for%20Medj%20website.doc

Luke
[/quote]

Thank you LukeQ.

My next question is, should I talk with my priest about this?


#14

Scylla - these unapproved and condemmned aparitions not only cause damage and division inside the church but really make us as the Catholic Church look like a bunch of superstitious heretical fruitloops to those outside the church who are attracted to the appeal of such a view.

My next question is, should I talk with my priest about this?

Rob from NY - wow - this is something that may be a good question of "Ask an Apologist"
I would be inclinded to ask him questions rather than make statements to determine his position. An opening one may be:

“Father, what are your views on the Bishop of Mostar’s two investigations and the Boznia Hertz Bishops conference where there was a vote 34 Bishops to 1 (and 1 obstaining), against anything supernatural occuring?”

He may not be aware of the church’s position on Medj and this is a gentle way of letting him know this and that you know a thing or two about the church mechanics of approval unaproval.

Above all, remain calm because staunch advocates of Medj and other apps are generally of the view that YOU must believe and if you don’t, you are not little/pure/too proud etc etc etc. This is generally a stronghold of the mind that keeps the person chained up in a false belief by restricting their interlect. Attack Medj and you attack them. Remember - JP2 talked about Faith and Reason. Discernment is about engaging both heart and head through God’s Grace. Studying the facts in the context of Cannon Law, an atheist lawyer would be able to argue a judgement of dissobience by Priests and Bishops leading pilgrimages and offering Mass at Medj. The level and power of the local bishop’s authority sanctioned by The Church is very clear in these cases.

Ask an Apoloigst for some advice and maybe another priest but speak hypothetically to protect your Priest.

Luke


#15

Exactly my point, thanks. This video is making Catholics look like a bunch of superstitious, idol worshipping, new agers.

They really work their agenda, distorting Catholicism into a caricature. This shook my wife up as she is still pretty new to the faith and it took a little bit of explaining to help her understand the mis-representation.

Scylla


#16

Just a thought - would the video have the ability to shake the superstious and false stronghold of the unapproved apparition advocate through total embarrasment? Hmmm…

Seriously - I wonder if there is a good video on explaining the church’s view on apparitions. Interlectually, the two problems that suck the unsuspecting in, are:

  1. No awareness as to the Church’s distinction between Public and Private Revelation and in particular, no private revelation can become new public revelation;
  2. No awareness of the local Bishop’s authority in these matters.
    Luke

#17

[quote=LukeQ]Scylla - these unapproved and condemmned aparitions not only cause damage and division inside the church but really make us as the Catholic Church look like a bunch of superstitious heretical fruitloops to those outside the church who are attracted to the appeal of such a view.
[/quote]

Personally, I agree-- that could be the perception. Most people aren’t going to know that they aren’t sanctioned, certainly not non-Catholics.

Rob from NY - wow - this is something that may be a good question of "Ask an Apologist"
I would be inclinded to ask him questions rather than make statements to determine his position. An opening one may be:

I don’t think I’ll ‘Ask an Apologist,’ but I’ll keep it in the back of my mind.

“Father, what are your views on the Bishop of Mostar’s two investigations and the Boznia Hertz Bishops conference where there was a vote 34 Bishops to 1 (and 1 obstaining), against anything supernatural occuring?”

Unanimous, would probably be the best word. Or, strike that, unopposed.

He may not be aware of the church’s position on Medj and this is a gentle way of letting him know this and that you know a thing or two about the church mechanics of approval unaproval.

Personally, I would expect that he doesn’t know. He’s a very kind man, and I’m sure he wouldn’t have done so obstinately.

Above all, remain calm because staunch advocates of Medj and other apps are generally of the view that YOU must believe and if you don’t, you are not little/pure/too proud etc etc etc. This is generally a stronghold of the mind that keeps the person chained up in a false belief by restricting their interlect. Attack Medj and you attack them. Remember - JP2 talked about Faith and Reason. Discernment is about engaging both heart and head through God’s Grace. Studying the facts in the context of Cannon Law, an atheist lawyer would be able to argue a judgement of dissobience by Priests and Bishops leading pilgrimages and offering Mass at Medj. The level and power of the local bishop’s authority sanctioned by The Church is very clear in these cases.

Indeed. Just a note, he took a personal trip, there was no official pilgrimage. And, while being a priest, he did not mention offering Mass at Medj. (which has been sanctioned, I believe).

Is there anything wrong with a personal trip? And should I point out, kindly, that he is deluding himself if he thinks there is a supernatural occurence at Medj. (which the bishops denied)?


#18

Rob - technically, the vote in the Bishop’s conference on Medj. was not unanimous:

  • 34 votes negative
  • 1 obstaining because he thought if he voted negative the presure for the Franciscans would to leave would be increased
  • 1 vote positive.

Medj promoters make big news about this one Bishop who believes.

Is there anything wrong with a personal trip? And should I point out, kindly, that he is deluding himself if he thinks there is a supernatural occurence at Medj. (which the bishops denied)?

What I do know is that No one is permitted to join an offical pilgramage and none is to organise one and no priest is to lead one. No visiting priest is permitted to offer mass at medj.

As to a personal trip, I have read something but I would have to dig it out. One of the central techings of Medj is the heresy of Pluralism so does the faithful want to be exposed to false teaching?

One must be careful to point things out to a priest as he holds an office worthy of respect. I would say that if you feel committed to speak the truth to him, book some time, (not after mass while the congregation are leaving), talk about what you have uncovered stating facts and ask him what his views are on it. Keep it friendly and pray well before you speak with him.

The danger in these things is that society is constantly putting more value on learned experience than on fact the basis of which is the faulty philosophy of phenominology. It holds up subjective personal opinion over and above objective evidence i.e: what is true for you may not be true for me - so what is truth?

Translated into christianity is the over emphasis of “my personal relationship with God” and “what God has revealed to me…” overrides what is layed down by the magisterium. Medj supporters always point critics to the fruits and their personal experiences of conversion. The facts regarding Pluralism, local bishop condemnations supported by the Vatican and gross dissobiedience by the visionaries and the local Franciscans promoting Medj don’t get a look in by the advocates of this false apparition phenomina.

I recommend - do your own reading on the issue and get very clear on the church ruling and why it is ruled this way, pray, seek counsel and book some quiet time with your priest.

Time for a coffee…
Luke

Luke


#19

Here are a couple more links on alleged mystical phenomena:

jloughnan.tripod.com/salall.htm

jloughnan.tripod.com/visions.htm


#20

DISCLAIMER: The views and opinions expressed in these forums do not necessarily reflect those of Catholic Answers. For official apologetics resources please visit www.catholic.com.