Prostestant's questions to me

"please tell me where Marian dogma comes from, it is not from the bible.
when Jesus said on the cross Literally translated the word tetelestai means, “It is finished.”
every thing needed for salvation was completely completed, so why or where does the priest get his power to call Jesus DWON from heaven and place him BACK on the cross? "

“catholic church teaches that Marry is a CO-redeemer that she was born with no sin,
this is #1 non biblical.”

Any short answers to these questions?

No.

Each of those is an entire conversation unto itself.

Is this a person you know? Someone you are talking with? If so, take one topic at a time and do not let them stray from that topic.

Or is this something online or on a message board? If it is, forget about it.

You can likely search all those on existing threads.

However, you can refer your friends to 1 Cor 1 where Paul preaches Christ crucified and Galatians 3 where the Galatians have depictions of Christ crucified (before their eyes) and yet are still focused on the law.

The co-redeemer stuff is false. It lacks an understanding of the communion of saints, the spirits of the saints in heaven (heaven is not empty until the last day), and intercession prayer -all of which is in scripture.

Who says it’s not from the Bible. Let him prove that the Trinity is from the Bible or the two natures of Christ? Not everything we believe is explicitly in the Bible–that’s not its function. Everything we believe is, rather supported by Scripture or is not contrary to it, an entirely different way of understanding theology.

when Jesus said on the cross Literally translated the word tetelestai means, “It is finished.”
every thing needed for salvation was completely completed

Jesus’ death on the cross provides all we need for salvation, it’s true, but it didn’t “completely complete” each person’s salvation. Rather, it redeemed all mankind so that we can draw on the redemption for our salvation. He’s conflating redemption with salvation.

so why or where does the priest get his power to call Jesus DWON from heaven and place him BACK on the cross?

The priest does nothing of the kind. Through the power of the Holy Spirit, he draws on the one sacrifice of Christ and represents it to the Father. Remember, Jesus offered his sacrifice once to the Father in eternity, for all time, which is why we can draw on it now.

“catholic church teaches that Marry is a CO-redeemer.”

No, she doesn’t. :slight_smile: She teaches that Mary, like all believers, is a co-worker with Christ. The title co-redeemer has not been conferred on Mary or anyone else.

that she was born with no sin,
this is #1 non biblical."

Yes, it is biblical. Adam and Eve were “born”/came into being without sin. Jesus was born without sin. St. John the Baptist was filled with the Holy Spirit in his mother’s womb and was born without sin. Mary, from the instant of her conception was preserved free from the stain of original sin, but in her case , like Jesus, she had no desire to sin.

Any short answers to these questions?

Those are about as short answers as I can supply, but I highly doubt they’ll satisfy your friend since his whole outlook is based on sola scriptura, which is #1 not biblical. :wink:

Here is my goto video about Mary. Easy 12 minutes very insightful.

m.youtube.com/watch?v=xg2OQ_iPTv8

Pretty ignorant.

Show him John 6 and Luke 222.
Also tell him to read Luke 1.

Here’s an answer from this web site on the once and for all.

My friend said that Christ died once for all, so we don’t need redemptive suffering souls. How should I respond?

Full Question

My friend said that Christ died once for all, so we don’t need redemptive suffering souls. How should I respond?
Answer

A Scripture verse to point your friend to is Colossians 1:24: “Now I [Paul] rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I complete what is lacking in Christ’s afflictions for the sake of his body, that is, the church.”

Paul doesn’t mean that Christ’s death is insufficient for universal redemption. He is simply saying that his own incorporation into the mystical body of Christ (the Church) means that his sufferings can be helpful for other members of the body (the Colossian Christians to whom he is writing). They are helpful only because Paul is united to Christ in his Church and is offering his sufferings to Christ for the sake of the Church.

In the same way, suffering souls can similarly offer up their sufferings for the benefit of others.

Answered by: Catholic Answers Staff

Here is another good answer from this site.

Jesus rose from the dead, so why do Catholics morbidly dwell on his death?

Full Question

Since Jesus rose from the dead and now lives in glory, why do you Catholics dwell morbidly on his death by keeping his body on the cross? Why not display an empty cross, as we do?
Answer

We like to follow Paul’s example and counsel. Remember that it was he who wrote, “We, for our part, preach a crucified Christ; to the Jews indeed a stumbling block and to the Gentiles foolishness, but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ, the power of God and the wisdom of God. For the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men” (1 Cor 1:23-25).

Here’s another verse to remember: “And I, brethren, when I came to you, did not come with pretentious speech or wisdom, announcing unto you the witness to Christ. For I determined not to know anything among you, except Jesus Christ, and him crucified” (1 Cor 2:1-2).

You seem to forget the many examples of Catholic art in which Jesus is depicted as a lamb, an infant in his mother’s arms, a vibrant man engaged in his public ministry, a shepherd, and as the triumphant risen Lord. All of the aspects of Christ’s life are represented in Catholic art, but none more than the Crucifixion. Why? Because that was the goal, the focal point, of Jesus’ Incarnation.

Answered by: Catholic Answers Staff

Just because it’s not in the Bible does not mean it’s not true. It took the Bible about 500 years to reach its current form. And then about 1000 years later the Protestants created their own version. God didn’t just drop the Bible from the sky and said, “Everything you need is in here!” No! The Church over time with the help of the Holy Spirit created the Bible.

The Bible in fact comes from traditions. The Bible itself even says to hold fast to traditions (2 Thessalonians 2:15, 1 Corinthians 11:2). And traditions such as the Immaculate Conception and the Assumption of Mary and such are found in the early Church. They happened not to make it in scripture (though, it’s possible Revelation 12 could be making a reference to the Assumption). However, since we clearly find the early Church speaking about these things, and these things also be held widely across the early Church, they surely have some roots with the apostles. Besides, don’t Protestants even follow tradition? They follow a tradition which interpret the Bible as teaching Sola Fide. They follow the tradition of Sola Scriptura which can be found nowhere in the Bible.

We are not re-sacrificing Jesus. We are not placing him on the cross again. Your friend is right. Jesus died once and his death finished it all. Instead, the Eucharist is the same sacrifice as the one on the cross. No, the Eucharist is not somehow transcending time and somehow becoming the same sacrifice. To the Church, it is a mystery. It is the same exact sacrifice that happened to Jesus about 2000 years ago. Just under a different form.

Ok, the Co-Redemptrix is not dogma. Catholics do not have to believe it. In all truth, it is not really a belief but a truth that some Catholics like to refer to in the term of Co-Redemptirx and others do not. We do not believe Mary helps save us from our sins. Jesus is the only one who saved us from our sins and the only one who can save us. Rather, the doctrine teaches that Mary played a large role in helping to bring about the redemption of man. This was by following the will of God and allowing the power of the Holy Spirit to impregnate her with Jesus Christ so she could give birth to him and that one day he could save us from our sins.

The whole Mary being sinless thing is again a tradition which is just as valid as the Bible. Although, it like the assumption may have actually been referred to in the Bible. In Luke 1:28 the angle Gabriel in the annunciation tells Mary she is “full of grace.” The word used here is kecharitōmenē κεχαριτωμένη. The word is used passively, which means that God has always favored Mary and has always filled her with grace.

Very interesting for me, too! Thanks.

At the bottom of my post is a link. I made a book with Catholic teachings and Protestant objections.

I use the Bible, the catechism of the Catholic Church and the early church fathers.

Check it out, there’s like 10 things in the book about Mary.

How about a list of the books that should be in the bible?

Good point. Where does the bible say everything we are to believe must be found in the Bible?

I bet he goes to Church on Sunday. Where in the Bible does it say we should have church on Sunday? why does he not keep the Sabbath (Saturday)?

Obviously your friend doesn’t believe this. He believes Jesus rose from the dead after He said ‘it is finished’. He continued to teach His Apostles and then ascended. He then sent the Holy Spirit. Then He had men write letters that became the Epistles. So if your friend is going to take such a strong position he’d need to say nothing needed to happen, or be recorded, after that statement since everything necessary for salvation was completed.

The priest does not call Jesus down from Heaven. The priest does not place Jesus back on the Cross.

This is not Catholic belief.

-Tim-

I’d ask him if the resurrection was needed for salvation.

The answer is obviously yes. So his personal interpretation doesn’t hold water.

What Jesus meant when He said “it is finished” was the Last Supper. The Passover was finished with the offering. That is why Jesus drank the 4th cup of wine (I thirst) just before He died. He was completing the Passover and creating the New Passover.

Sure.

"please tell me where Marian dogma comes from, it is not from the bible.

Look at John 2:5 and context. Mary clearly displays her intercessory role as Queen Mother of the Messiah in the tradition of the Davidic kings that began with Solomon. Her message in ever approved apparition in history has been essentially the same as John 2:5.

when Jesus said on the cross Literally translated the word tetelestai means, “It is finished.” every thing needed for salvation was completely completed, so why or where does the priest get his power to call Jesus DWON from heaven and place him BACK on the cross? "

Looks like an attack on the Mass and crucifixes.

The Mass is not calling Jesus down from heaven and has never been taught as such by the church. Tell him to supply you with an authentic and authoritative Catholic source for that allegation or else disqualify his source as too grossly ignorant to be trusted.

The Mass is a re-presentation of the same once for all timeless sacrifice on the cross. Ask him if he believes that that sacrifice timelessly applies to all time both past and future. He cannot deny this.

As for the crucifix, that’s actually very easy and very scriptural. St. Paul plainly states that he (and w as well) come to the world " [2] For I judged not myself to know anything among you, but Jesus Christ, and him crucified." How better than the display of our crucifix which also reminds at every glance of the terrible price that God paid for us because He loves us.

“catholic church teaches that Marry is a CO-redeemer that she was born with no sin,this is #1 non biblical.”

And not even remotely something that the church teaches. Here’s what the catechism actually says.

Paragraph 6. Mary - Mother of Christ, Mother of the Church
963 Since the Virgin Mary’s role in the mystery of Christ and the Spirit has been treated, it is fitting now to consider her place in the mystery of the Church. "The Virgin Mary . . . is acknowledged and honored as being truly the Mother of God and of the redeemer. . . . She is ‘clearly the mother of the members of Christ’ . . . since she has by her charity joined in bringing about the birth of believers in the Church, who are members of its head."502 "Mary, Mother of Christ, Mother of the Church."503
** I. MARY’S MOTHERHOOD WITH REGARD TO THE CHURCH **
** Wholly united with her Son . . . **
964 Mary’s role in the Church is inseparable from her union with Christ and flows directly from it. “This union of the mother with the Son in the work of salvation is made manifest from the time of Christ’s virginal conception up to his death”;504 it is made manifest above all at the hour of his Passion:

Thus the Blessed Virgin advanced in her pilgrimage of faith, and faithfully persevered in her union with her Son unto the cross. There she stood, in keeping with the divine plan, enduring with her only begotten Son the intensity of his suffering, joining herself with his sacrifice in her mother’s heart, and lovingly consenting to the immolation of this victim, born of her: to be given, by the same Christ Jesus dying on the cross, as a mother to his disciple, with these words: "Woman, behold your son."505
965 After her Son’s Ascension, Mary "aided the beginnings of the Church by her prayers."506 In her association with the apostles and several women, "we also see Mary by her prayers imploring the gift of the Spirit, who had already overshadowed her in the Annunciation."507
** . . . also in her Assumption **
966 "Finally the Immaculate Virgin, preserved free from all stain of original sin, when the course of her earthly life was finished, was taken up body and soul into heavenly glory, and exalted by the Lord as Queen over all things, so that she might be the more fully conformed to her Son, the Lord of lords and conqueror of sin and death."508 The Assumption of the Blessed Virgin is a singular participation in her Son’s Resurrection and an anticipation of the resurrection of other Christians:

In giving birth you kept your virginity; in your Dormition you did not leave the world, O Mother of God, but were joined to the source of Life. You conceived the living God and, by your prayers, will deliver our souls from death.509
** . . . she is our Mother in the order of grace **
967 By her complete adherence to the Father’s will, to his Son’s redemptive work, and to every prompting of the Holy Spirit, the Virgin Mary is the Church’s model of faith and charity. Thus she is a “preeminent and . . . wholly unique member of the Church”; indeed, she is the “exemplary realization” (typus)510 of the Church.

(Cont’d)

968 Her role in relation to the Church and to all humanity goes still further. "In a wholly singular way she cooperated by her obedience, faith, hope, and burning charity in the Savior’s work of restoring supernatural life to souls. For this reason she is a mother to us in the order of grace."511
969 "This motherhood of Mary in the order of grace continues uninterruptedly from the consent which she loyally gave at the Annunciation and which she sustained without wavering beneath the cross, until the eternal fulfillment of all the elect. Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation . . . . Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix."512
970 "Mary’s function as mother of men in no way obscures or diminishes this unique mediation of Christ, but rather shows its power. But the Blessed Virgin’s salutary influence on men . . . flows forth from the superabundance of the merits of Christ, rests on his mediation, depends entirely on it, and draws all its power from it."513 "No creature could ever be counted along with the Incarnate Word and Redeemer; but just as the priesthood of Christ is shared in various ways both by his ministers and the faithful, and as the one goodness of God is radiated in different ways among his creatures, so also the unique mediation of the Redeemer does not exclude but rather gives rise to a manifold cooperation which is but a sharing in this one source."514
[FONT=Georgia][size=4]*** II. DEVOTION TO THE BLESSED VIRGIN **[/size]
971All generations will call me blessed”: "The Church’s devotion to the Blessed Virgin is intrinsic to Christian worship."515 The Church rightly honors "the Blessed Virgin with special devotion. From the most ancient times the Blessed Virgin has been honored with the title of ‘Mother of God,’ to whose protection the faithful fly in all their dangers and needs. . . . This very special devotion . . . differs essentially from the adoration which is given to the incarnate Word and equally to the Father and the Holy Spirit, and greatly fosters this adoration."516 The liturgical feasts dedicated to the Mother of God and Marian prayer, such as the rosary, an “epitome of the whole Gospel,” express this devotion to the Virgin Mary.517 [/FONT]

You can print that out and give it to him and ask him to show you anywhere where it says that Mary is any sort of redeemer at all. As John Martignoni says. “I don’t mind if you disagree with Catholic belief, but please make sure that it’s actually something that the church really teaches.”

Finally, challenge him with where his belief that everything that Christians believe and practice much be found in the Bible because this **really is **a non biblical doctrine. I suggest that you have a look at the following 3 threads of mine where n-Cs have epically failed to show any biblical evidence to support their Sola Scriptura doctrine.

[LIST]
*] It’s NOT in the Bible, okay?
*]It’s NOT in the Bible, okay? (Part II)
*]“If anyone teaches/preaches something that is not in scripture”
[/LIST]
Be sure to offer all this with a calm demeanor and a smile on your face.

Thanks everybody for the great responses!

thephilosopher6 #10
Co-Redemptrix is not dogma. Catholics do not have to believe it. In all truth, it is not really a belief but a truth that some Catholics like to refer to in the term of Co-Redemptirx and others do not.

I think we need to be clearer about the Church’s teaching which is not only in dogmas, but in infallible doctrine, and in non-infallible doctrine.

That Mary is Co-Redemptrix or Mediatrix of all Graces may not be a dogma, but both of these are well-founded teachings of the Catholic Church. Some saints have explicitly used these terms, and Popes (particularly Pope St John Paul II) have clarified their meaning. Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI was right. These terms are not found in the language of the Scriptures and of the Fathers. But so was the word “purgatory” not found. Therefore, while the Church might not elevate these teachings to the level of dogma, it is important that all Catholics realize that these Marian beliefs are solidly founded in Scriptures - provided, of course, that Mary’s role is properly understood as not being equal, but subordinate, to Christ’s work. Just as there is danger in glorifying Mary excessively by use of these titles, there is an equal danger - if we drop the use of these titles altogether - of not giving Mary the recognition that she deserves in the special role that she played in God’s plan of salvation.

Frank J Sheed, that doyen of the Catholic Evidence Guild, in his great Theology And Sanity, Sheed & Ward 1947, expresses the doctrine beautifully:
“As Christ represents humanity in the Redemptive Act, she represents humanity in the co-redemptive act. His suffering was the essential thing, and hers valuable only by derivation. His was the Passion, hers the Com-Passion. He was the Redeemer but the Church loves to call her Co-Redemptrix.” (Theology And Sanity, p 235).

Pope Benedict XV reaffirmed Mary as Co-Redemptrix in his Apostolic Letter Inter soldalica:
“Therefore, one can say, she [that is, the Blessed Virgin] redeemed with Christ the human race.” [Pope Benedict XV, Apostolic Letter *Inter soldalica, AAS 1918, 181].

The Church’s teaching is that the BVM was eternally united with Jesus in the decree for the Incarnation, and thus from eternity before time began and through all eternity (Lumen Gentium 59).

Church Teaching on Mary as Mediatrix of (All) Graces
Compiled by Fr. William G. Most

ewtn.com/faith/teachings/marya4a.htm
Just as the pagan may be saved WITHOUT knowing Christ and His teaching or Church specifically, yet every Grace comes to the pagan through Christ’s Church, and through the BVM as Mother of the Church and Mother of Grace.

In the same way as every grace comes to men from Christ through Mary as Mother in the order of grace, so does every grace come to men through Mary as Mother of the Church, for outside of the Church there is no salvation.

And,
“Her status as Mediatrix of All graces exists in a double sense.
“First, she gave the world its Redeemer, the source of all graces, and in this sense she is the channel of all graces.
“Second, Mary is the Mediatrix of all graces because of her intercession for us in heaven. What this means is that no grace accrues to us without her intercession.”
Catholicism and Fundamentalism, Karl Keating, Ignatius, 1988, p 278-279]

Answer by Fr. John Echert on 10-10-2002 (EWTN):
Already the Church regards her as Mediatrix of all grace; it would follow from this that if Mary is a channel of all grace, and since redemption is an act of grace, Mary cooperates completely in the work of Redemption – not as the principal and source, but as channel and partner.
tinyurl.com/m4eu965

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