Protestant bishop blessing Catholics at IEC 2012


#1

The Church of Ireland (Anglican) Bishop Michael Jackson 'blessed' holy water and Catholic pilgrims at Monday's proceedings of the International Eucharistic Congress in Dublin, Ireland.

I understand that the RCC holds that Anglican orders are null and void, so why was this Protestant clergy man blessing Catholics like a priest does? He blessed the water, he sprinkled the people, and then at the end of the liturgy service (it was not Mass) he blessed the people with his hand as a priest does at Mass.

There's a story here, but I don't think it mentions the blessing and the holy water.

So, was this action by the Protestant minister approved by Rome?


#2

Anyone?


#3

[quote="Irish_Hare, post:1, topic:287712"]
The Church of Ireland (Anglican) Bishop Michael Jackson 'blessed' holy water and Catholic pilgrims at Monday's proceedings of the International Eucharistic Congress in Dublin, Ireland.

I understand that the RCC holds that Anglican orders are null and void, so why was this Protestant clergy man blessing Catholics like a priest does? He blessed the water, he sprinkled the people, and then at the end of the liturgy service (it was not Mass) he blessed the people with his hand as a priest does at Mass.

There's a story here, but I don't think it mentions the blessing and the holy water.

So, was this action by the Protestant minister approved by Rome?

[/quote]

There was a Catholic Bishop present so they must have given authroisation. And I don't see that it matters as it wasn't a Eucharisitic services. When Pope Benedict attended Evensong at Westminster Abbey he made the sign of the cross with others when the Dean gave the blessing at the end of the service. I really don't think that Rome would be interested in something like this.


#4

Even small gestures like this are very detrimental to peoples perception. Actions like this give people the impression that Catholicism and protestantism are co-equal. They most certainly are not. The former was founded by Our Blessed Lord and the latter was a heretical invention of man. And The Church of Ireland and all Protestant groups may contain some facets of the truth but are ultimately heretical and man made.


#5

[quote="FAH, post:4, topic:287712"]
Even small gestures like this are very detrimental to peoples perception. Actions like this give people the impression that Catholicism and protestantism are co-equal. They most certainly are not. The former was founded by Our Blessed Lord and the latter was a heretical invention of man. And The Church of Ireland and all Protestant groups may contain some facets of the truth but are ultimately heretical and man made.

[/quote]

Yeah I agree. I'd be very disappointed if Rome approved this specific gesture. Here we had a Protestant clergyman 'blessing' a Catholic congregation just like the priest would. It's not right. The Archbishop of Dublin, Diarmaid Martin, was present but he did not issue a blessing at the end. He left it to the Protestant man. I think it shows scorn for the faith of Catholics to treat them in this way.


#6

Rome has no control over what a Protestant "bishop" does. One branch of the Anglicans has called itself Anglo-Catholic and followed the Church's liturgical practices for some time. The Church has had plenty to say about Anglican orders being invalid. Therefore, the blessing -- objectively speaking -- was an empty gesture.

I'm sad to learn that a blessing was not given by the Catholic archbishop!


#7

[quote="Irish_Hare, post:5, topic:287712"]
Yeah I agree. I'd be very disappointed if Rome approved this specific gesture. Here we had a Protestant clergyman 'blessing' a Catholic congregation just like the priest would. It's not right. The Archbishop of Dublin, Diarmaid Martin, was present but he did not issue a blessing at the end. He left it to the Protestant man. I think it shows scorn for the faith of Catholics to treat them in this way.

[/quote]

Well judging by the rest of the commentary in the article, the Irish Bishops obviously feel differentl It would be interesting to see if there were any other comments from Catholic newspapers or commentators. I have seen it happen in England too, and a Lutheran Bishop bestowed a blessing at an ecumenical gathering in Germany and no-one commented. As the church has agreements with both the Lutheran and Anglican churches on common theological understandings then I think we should see this in that context, and not get too alarmed. If we have confidence in our faith, then we need not feel threatened. There are more important things to worry about within our Church.


#8

[quote="Jim_Dandy, post:6, topic:287712"]
Rome has no control over what a Protestant "bishop" does. One branch of the Anglicans has called itself Anglo-Catholic and followed the Church's liturgical practices for some time. The Church has had plenty to say about Anglican orders being invalid. Therefore, the blessing -- objectively speaking -- was an empty gesture.

I'm sad to learn that a blessing was not given by the Catholic archbishop!

[/quote]

He was *invited *to preside over a Catholic ecumenical prayer service (with the vast majority of those present being Catholic) by the Irish Catholic bishops and as part of that, he gave blessings just like a Catholic bishop or priest would. The Catholic bishops present did not give blessings. It was a Protestant leading the service. The impression given is that a Protestant can preside over Catholic prayer services in the same way a priest or Catholic bishop can.


#9

There were five men present including a Russian Orthodox Bishop, Catholic Bishop, aswell as the COI Bishop.

They all played a part in the blessing.

An Ethiopian Orthodox Bishop helped in the blessing of the people present.

A beautiful, ecumenical, service allround...


#10

[quote="Irish_Hare, post:8, topic:287712"]
He was *invited *to preside over a Catholic ecumenical prayer service (with the vast majority of those present being Catholic) by the Irish Catholic bishops and as part of that, he gave blessings just like a Catholic bishop or priest would. The Catholic bishops present did not give blessings. It was a Protestant leading the service. The impression given is that a Protestant can preside over Catholic prayer services in the same way a priest or Catholic bishop can.

[/quote]

There's no such thing as a 'Catholic ecumenical prayer service'. Either the service is Catholic, in which case the Protestant clergyman should not have participated, or it was ecumenical, in which case he not only could but should have had a role in leading the prayers.

The mere fact that a majority of attendees of an ecumenical service are Catholic doesn't matter. Nor would it matter if the majority were Anglican or Presbylutherbaptalist. Such a service is designed to showcase the fact that denominations, in spite of our differences, can unite in common worship of Christ. Such an occasion is not the place for 'my faith is better than yours' one-upmanship or divisiveness, which is why Communion is not offered.


#11

[quote="Silvio_Dante, post:9, topic:287712"]
There were five men present including a Russian Orthodox Bishop, Catholic Bishop, aswell as the COI Bishop.

They all played a part in the blessing.

An Ethiopian Orthodox Bishop helped in the blessing of the people present.

A beautiful, ecumenical, service allround...

[/quote]

Do you know which Russian Orthodox Bishop by chance? People commenting on these affairs in Ireland should bear in mind the particular history of the country regarding Protestants and Catholics when commenting on these issues. Also the Church of Ireland represents a certain percentage of Irish people as well who are Christians, the biggest Christians Churches been (obviously) the Catholic, Orthodox, Methodist and Anglican although not in the exact order proportionally.


#12

Such an occasion is not the place for 'my faith is better than yours' one-upmanship

:thumbsup:

And as was pointed out the idea of a 'Catholic ecumenical service' is inherently rather self refuting.


#13

[quote="LilyM, post:10, topic:287712"]
There's no such thing as a 'Catholic ecumenical prayer service'. Either the service is Catholic, in which case the Protestant clergyman should not have participated, or it was ecumenical, in which case he not only could but should have had a role in leading the prayers.

The mere fact that a majority of attendees of an ecumenical service are Catholic doesn't matter. Nor would it matter if the majority were Anglican or Presbylutherbaptalist. Such a service is designed to showcase the fact that denominations, in spite of our differences, can unite in common worship of Christ. Such an occasion is not the place for 'my faith is better than yours' one-upmanship or divisiveness, which is why Communion is not offered.

[/quote]

Well said.


#14

[quote="JharekCarnelian, post:11, topic:287712"]
Do you know which Russian Orthodox Bishop by chance?

[/quote]

Sorry, he wasn't a bishop. Rather, he was a Priest and representative of the Head of the Department of External Relations of the Russian Orthodox Church...:)


#15

=Irish Hare;9399357]The Church of Ireland (Anglican) Bishop Michael Jackson 'blessed' holy water and Catholic pilgrims at Monday's proceedings of the International Eucharistic Congress in Dublin, Ireland.

I understand that the RCC holds that Anglican orders are null and void, so why was this Protestant clergy man blessing Catholics like a priest does? He blessed the water, he sprinkled the people, and then at the end of the liturgy service (it was not Mass) he blessed the people with his hand as a priest does at Mass.

There's a story here, but I don't think it mentions the blessing and the holy water.

So, was this action by the Protestant minister approved by Rome?

:D IRISH HERE TOO:thumbsup:

I see no faith conflict here. Parents can and should offer to BLESS there family members.

Luke 9: 47-50
"But when Jesus perceived the thought of their hearts, he took a child and put him by his side, and said to them, "Whoever receives this child in my name receives me, and whoever receives me receives him who sent me; for he who is least among you all is the one who is great." John answered, *"Master, we saw a man casting out demons in your name, and we forbade him, because he does not follow with us." *
*But Jesus said to him, "Do not forbid him; for he that is not against you is for you." * opps that ought to be GREEN:)

God Bless,
pat /PJM


#16

[quote="Silvio_Dante, post:14, topic:287712"]
Sorry, he wasn't a bishop. Rather, he was a Priest and representative of the Head of the Department of External Relations of the Russian Orthodox Church...:)

[/quote]

I wondered, as the Bishop for Sourozh diocese which covers the UK and Ireland is based in the UK where main ROC Cathedral is located. I asked mainly as my wife is Russian Orthodox.


#17

This is wrong on so many levels. Someone mentioned that the pope blessed people at some ecumenical gathering. That’s perfectly fine because he can actually bless things! These protestant ministers can not, and certainly can not bless holy water.

This is a scandal.

There’s only one true kind of ecumenism: recognizing that we are the true faith, and they are not. We are right, they are (at least in part) wrong. Hate to put it harshly, but it’s true.


#18

[quote="superamazingman, post:17, topic:287712"]
This is wrong on so many levels. Someone mentioned that the pope blessed people at some ecumenical gathering. That's perfectly fine because he can actually bless things! These protestant ministers can not, and certainly can not bless holy water.

This is a scandal.

There's only one true kind of ecumenism: recognizing that we are the true faith, and they are not. We are right, they are (at least in part) wrong. Hate to put it harshly, but it's true.

[/quote]

There is absolutely nothing wrong here, by the way not all the attendees are even Protestant as was pointed out. You would be of course absolutely wrong if you said the Russian Orthodox priest attending could not bless holy water.


#19

=superamazingman;9400949]This is wrong on so many levels. Someone mentioned that the pope blessed people at some ecumenical gathering. That's perfectly fine because he can actually bless things! These protestant ministers can not, and certainly can not bless holy water.

This is a scandal.

There's only one true kind of ecumenism: recognizing that we are the true faith, and they are not. We are right, they are (at least in part) wrong. Hate to put it harshly, but it's true.

Sorry my friend,

But I disagree with you:)
WHY? See my previous post in this string.


#20

[quote="superamazingman, post:17, topic:287712"]
This is wrong on so many levels. Someone mentioned that the pope blessed people at some ecumenical gathering. That's perfectly fine because he can actually bless things! These protestant ministers can not, and certainly can not bless holy water.

This is a scandal.

There's only one true kind of ecumenism: recognizing that we are the true faith, and they are not. We are right, they are (at least in part) wrong. Hate to put it harshly, but it's true.

[/quote]

Exactly.

The question is, to the naysayers, can a Protestant clergyman issue a valid priestly blessing, and can he validly bless holy water? If not, then it is just a charade and the water wasn't blessed and his priestly blessing was not valid. This is a question that the naysayers must answer.

I can't be sure, since I was watching on TV, but it seemed to me that it was only the Anglican bishop who actually issued the blessing at the end of the ecumenical prayer service.


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