Protestant converts: How did you deal with the Church's Marian doctrines?


#121

Oh come now. One might as well state that the word MOTHER is ‘dangerously close to and obviously a remnant of early pagan beliefs in the goddess mother’. Mary is the Mother of Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ is True God and True Man. Mary did not give birth to some monstrous ‘human nature Jesus’ while the “separate God Jesus” wafted around completely outside her.


#122

This is not my understanding. This is scriptural teaching. King David literally said in the Psalm that he sinned against God alone and against no one else.


#123

That’s David’s understanding.


#124

Theology 101? Not exactly. This is a Christological theory used as an explanation for Jesus’s being. So we have ONE person with TWO natures, yet we still must rectify this somehow with the theory that the God head is comprised of ONE nature with Three persons. Now then if each person of the Godhead has one nature then how is it that Jesus who is God gains two natures without destroying the unique, undivided, simple nature that God has? We cannot have it both ways. Either the Son part of the Godhead gained a nature in Jesus and thus destroys the very definition of God or we must somehow separate the birth of the man Jesus from the Son part of the Godhead. Seems some theologians simply wipe away these contradictions with a wave of the equivocating hand not caring that we rapidly sink into meaninglessness here. Where we give meaninglessness meaning we make even fools and idiots wise men.


#125

Are you saying…King David knows less about piety than you do?


#126

That is a theological theory that has never been definitively and meaningfully argued to settlement. It became a heresy only through political maneuvering and secular enforcement. I cannot see how you think that is not Christian understanding when I literally took that statement out of the new testament. God is spirit. That most certainly is a Christian statement and would have been Jesus’s understanding.


#127

You pervert my words. It is quite a separate issue to associate the word Mother with a human capacity and the word Mother associated with a divine capacity. The paganism I refer to associates the latter and Mary’s association with the phrase Mother of God clearly denotes her capacity in association with the latter as well. Are we here to reason together or to simply repeat the statements of beliefs which are in question as if that alone settles the issue?


#128

Lol, it really is that simple.

  1. Jesus is God in the flesh.
  2. Mary is Jesus’ Mother
  3. Therefore, it is truly right and just to call Mary the Mother of God.

Also:

  1. The Queen in the Kingdom of Judah was the Kings Mother, in Hebrew the Gebirah or Great Lady / Queen Mother
  2. Jesus is the King of kings and the Lion of Judah, the King of Judah par excellence and King of Creation, and King of Heaven.
  3. Therefore, it is truly right and just to call Mary the Queen of heaven and earth.

The only logical way to deny Mary the titles of Queen of heaven&earth and Mother of God would be to deny Jesus is God or that Jesus is King.

To deny Mary is Queen or Theotokos yet claim Jesus is King and God is a case of having your cake and eating it too. It’s logically untenable - one must choose either/or in this case.


#129

And what do you believe?


#130

No. I’m saying that David understood his sin as against God largely.


#131

Mary is the Mother of God. She didn’t give birth to natures, she gave birth to one divine Person. One might say that George Washington’s mother was the mother of the first US president, but that is not to say that she is the source of his presidency. Neither does declaring Mary as the Mother of God suggest that she is the source of His divinity.

It’s this simple.


#132

This is what Nestorius taught. He taught that Mary was the Mother of Christ (Christotokos). This teaching was condemned at the Council of Ephesus in 431.

Do you have some reference for this?


#133

This is not true. It is a dogmatic teaching that Mary is the ‘Mother of God’. The Church is quite clear that Mary is the mother of Jesus’ humanity and not his divinity.

It is really simple. Jesus is God. Mary is the Mother of Jesus. Therefore Mary is the a Mother of God. It is nothing like paganism.


#134

That’s a decent analogy but it falls short:

George Washington became the 1st POTUS when he was an older man, whereas Jesus was God incarnate from the very first instant of his Miraculous Conception, and in fact from eternity and to eternity.

As I said, it is truly right and just to venerate the Virgin as Theotokos.

One must choose: either Jesus is God and therefore Mary is Theotokos, Mater Dei, God bearer/Mother of God.

Or

Jesus is not God, and Mary is simply Christotokos, Mater Christi - Christ bearer/Mother of Christ (this is the position of Arians and Muslims).


#135

To answer the OP’s question:

I’m currently going through RCIA, and as a cradle Protestant I still have several difficulties concerning these doctrines. However, I am largely convinced, for various reasons, that the Catholic Church is indeed what she claims to be. If that’s the case, then it follows that the Church has the competence to teach infallibly on precisely these sorts of subjects.

I would be lying if I said that this posed no further difficulties. Even though the above logic implies that the Church’s Marian teachings are correct, it doesn’t necessarily make it easier to internalize them, or to quash numerous inner objections that still seem sound, at the moment. Whatever trouble I might have in understanding or seeing the truth of certain teachings, though, I can still obey and assent to what reason tells me is the valid authority on the subject. I can refrain from giving scandal by airing my difficulties in the wrong company. And I can hope that with prayer, time, and grace, obedience might blossom into true, heartfelt understanding.

This might seem like weak and faithless stuff, and maybe it is, God help me. But I hope it’s not being stiff-necked, so much as an acknowledgment that conforming one’s mind and heart to the shapes they ought to have can be a long-term project, depending on where we start from.


#136

I can’t tell you how helpful this was for me. It’s exactly what I needed to hear. I struggle with this as well and feel awkward praying for her intercession, especially when I remember how young she was when she made the choice to bear the son of God. But praying to ask both Jesus and Mary for help with understanding and acceptance is exactly what I should be doing! I don’t know that I will ever have the devotion that some people have (especially the sisters at our parish which are totally in love with her), but I’d sure love a warm mother/daughter relationship, something I’ve never experienced. Thank you!


#137

Yes it is somewhat amusing. As I’ve said where you bring meaning to meaninglessness you make even idiots and fools wise men.

  1. God in the flesh, flesh is form, John 5:37 "You have never heard his voice nor seen his form,…"
    Heck, Jesus clear through John chapter 5 explains his position with the Father after he is accused of equating himself with God and his explanation does not equate them in substance, but specifically in authority only, which was GIVEN to him by God.
    There is a multitude of other verses testifying to Jesus’s explanation of his position with respect to God the almighty, a.k.a. his father.
    I asked a simply question which needs to be rectified in order to be meaningful with respect to not separating Jesus’s humanity from his divinity and no one, yourself included has even attempted an answer. Meaninglessness! Made meaningful by those who would claim special knowledge and thus privilege.
    2/3 Mary the Mother of Jesus humanity. That’s the whole blinking point of Christ’s redeeming mission. His humanity. He’s compared to Adam in this regard for gosh sakes. Unless you put her title as a Mother into perspective you lead people astray which is precisely why the Roman Churches leadership causes most of its own “persecutions” to begin with by placing unnecessary stumbling blocks in peoples way. Mary is in no way shape or form the Mother of God. The very idea is ridiculously archaic and pagan. Jesus himself didn’t call her his Mother I suspect for this reason. He specifically made her an equal among many. His only reference to her was with the word woman. This was in no way an insult since in the culture of his time it would have been a simple greeting or address…EXCEPT when addressing ones own Mother! The Jewish culture of the time would have considered it an insult to address you own Mother simply as woman. Jesus didn’t insult Mary because he didn’t consider her his Mother in the traditional sense!

#138

also…

  1. I’ve covered this elsewhere, perhaps a different thread. Anyone in this ancient culture called Queen was typically not the sole Queen. Kings generally took several wives. None could claim the sole title of Queen and were generally not addressed as Queen for the simple fact that there were so many who could claim that title. There is only one mother of the offspring who inherited the Kingship therefore she inherited the title of Queen with the qualifier of mother attached to it. Her title is never simply Queen. It is there after always Queen Mother. So far I understand that you understand this and we agree. This is a cultural reflection of authority. I believe people fail when they try to apply a human cultural identity to God as if there is a one to one correlation. God is in no way bound by human cultural standards. If baffles me why people would think so? Scripture tells us point blank that Gods ways are not ours.

This is clearly a false dichotomy logical fallacy. You have to take into account Gods completely “otherlyness” You cannot box God up and tether his existence to a human Mother. A creature which he created. If God is impossible to fathom then how is it you think that you can? The only natural thing here is Jesus’s humanity. Everything else is impossible to comprehend and therefore impossible to impose logical understanding nor meaning upon. These theological concepts…the nature of the trinity, the Theotokos, Marian dogmas, etc. were developed centuries after Jesus and the apostles. None of it was a part of their message nor necessary to our salvation. The only thing which comes from these things is untenable assertions, confusion, and meaninglessness.


#139

@setarcos I find your mental gymnastics both astonishing and exhausting.

If Jesus is God, and Mary is Jesus’ Mother, then Mary can rightfully be called Mater Dei. Jehovas’ witnesses who refuse to call Mary the Mother of God at least have logic on their side - they’re not guilty of the same mental gymnastics that some Protestants need to go through to try and claim Jesus is God yet Mary is not the Mother of God yet Mary is Jesus’ Mother.

If I was born Spyridon - Master of the Forums, and my mother is Maria, then it’s right to call Maria the Mother of the Forum-Master. It would take some impressive mental gymnastics to say that Spyridon is indeed Forum-Master from birth, and Maria is indeed the Mother of Spyridon, but yet Maria is not the Mother of the Forum Master.

You could write a 6,000 page, 10 volume magna carta explaining why that’s wrong, but it doesn’t make you right. Verbosity doesn’t add legitimacy to your claim - if it did, every conspiracy theorist would be writing gargantuan volumes. It may make you determined, but it doesn’t make you right.

You could go through the entire Bible and spend the rest of your life arguing against the Queenship of Mary.

It does nothing to change the fact that if Jesus is King then Mary is Queen. No amount of mental gymnastics can change the history of the Judaen Monarchy.


#140

I am only interested in the what of the councils in so much as I can ponder the why of the decisions. Why do you think scripture tells us to come together to reason and to test the spirits? Was this message only meant for the few to decide, even though God is within us all? The councils were a messy affair. You would believe the participants all came together under the same spirit of Christian charity and decided with the guidance of the same to a unified God inspired revelation. This simply isn’t apparently accurate. There was dispute, accusation, debate, condemnation, political maneuvering, and spite. The truth of understanding the nature of Jesus’s divinity’s relation to his humanity was never and will never in my opinion be understood. To establish any doctrine or convictions based on this pseudo understanding is folly. It requires equivocation or outright meaningless drivel which begs even a child’s curiosity to continuously ask “what does that really mean?” and having any answer fail miserably, falling into meaninglessness or unverifiable incomprehension. Its Satan’s toy box. We get spoon fed these absolute truths which the originators themselves don’t even comprehend. As an example…at the first council of Nicaea many of the bishops plugged their ears rather than listen to Arius’s debate. Seems rather than reason together, (the purpose of the councils), they had already chosen a position regardless of reasoning together. Do you want to deal in fairy tails or with reality? Reality is messy and not as straight forward. Sometimes the test of this world is not knowing the truth and trying to follow it. Sometimes the test is getting out of our own conceited way so that we can recognize truth when we see it in the first place, that or recognize what we thought was truth really wasn’t.

One glaring example of Pagan belief infiltrating and tainting Gods people would be that of King Ahab and his wife Jezebel…who brought with her her Mesopotamian Gods and the Goddess Ishtar, Astarte, etc., and a bevy of priests of the same religion and convincing her husband to back the same in Israel. Here’s a comparison to Mary, however vague in Israel’s cultural memories it is there…“Queen Ishtar told the people that Tammuz was now ascended to his father, Baal, and that the two of them would be with the worshipers in the sacred candle or lamp flame as Father, Son and Spirit. Ishtar, who was now worshiped as the “Mother of God and the Queen of Heaven”, continued to build her mystery religion.” Its there…if you look, in all its messy connections.


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